3156

Ha, sure.

3157

Yet you had no problem simplifying the conservative view with your gif, thereby distorting reality. I acknowledge that many liberals do not think the way my graphic depicts – but I am willing to admit that. Here, it’s a punch line to a joke and I find that offensive – just as all of you were offended by my graphic. Perhaps two wrongs don’t make a right, but I hope I got my point across.

“Good” and “Bad” Muslims were not my words. Obviously, the person who uses them is using their own internal standard when they do so. In this case, the Muslims I know used it and their own standard.

3158

They already did.

3159

To quote Eleanor Roosevelt, “Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.”

3160

To quote Eleanor Roosevelt, “What?”

3161

Why, in your view, is it unbelievable that I have friends of varying colors and creeds?

3162

In actuality, I’d say that the idea she presents is fairly common among Trump supporters. Frighteningly common, where they simultaneously espouse some notion that their religious views must be respected to the extent that they be allowed to oppress others, while simultaneously saying that Muslims should not have their religion respected at all.

But the thing here is that the woman in question is not a cartoon. She is an ACTUAL Trump supporter espousing that view. Certainly her views don’t necessarily apply to you or some other Trump supporter. But her views are most certainly worthy of ridicule.

Now, if you found an actual person who said what was being said in that comic you posted? That’d be perfectly fine… but I honestly find it hard to believe that you could find a real person who would say that.

Let’s just be totally real here for a moment. Are these people actually your friends? Have you ever asked them honestly how they feel about the way things are going these days, for muslims like them? Cause it’s kind of shitty for them right now.

I actually know a number of folks in France, and the way you’re describing it misses what’s going on there.

The reason why France has such huge issues, is not simply because “immigrants don’t want to assimilate.” It’s because French society is HUGELY XENOPHOBIC. French society has rampant racism and xenophobia, and refuses to ALLOW immigrants to assimilate. They’re basically segregated from society.

3163

Because of that horribly bigoted comic that you posted above.

I want you to take that comic that you posted above, and print out a copy, and show it to your “friends” who your kids play soccer with.

3164

Things done anonymously on an Internet message board to prove a political point does not translate to purposefully offending people I know. I see often here where people express an opinion and then share that they cannot or will not share with people that they know ‘in real life’ to avoid offense. So, you’ll excuse my not following through with your suggestion.

3165

So, they are your friends because they don’t know that you are a bigot on the internet?

3166

edit: apparently some of my text got cut off.

Well, I’ll disagree with your opinion re: Trump supporters being largely deplorables. As I’ve said, I know some stupid people who have said the very thing in discussion that you say is impossible.[quote=“JonRowe, post:3165, topic:126890, full:true”]
So, they are your friends because they don’t know that you are a bigot on the internet?
[/quote]

If I were a bigot on the internet then I don’t see how that could play into their decision-making process any more than if I were looking at kiddie porn on the internet and that being a part of their decision-making process. So, no, I don’t still beat my wife every Tuesday – I limit it to Mondays and Sundays. And my mom still doesn’t know I’m gay. I also know where I got my shoes – on my feet.

3167

But, if you really stand behind your words, why would you want to remain anonymous? If you really mean what you say, why be anonymous?

3168

I don’t think that Royal is really a bigot. I think that he just doesn’t really care that much about muslim people. Now, on some level this is itself a form of bigotry, but it’s somewhat different from the more overt kind.

What I would suggest as a useful exercise, would be to put oneself into the position of a muslim in these various situations, and try to imagine how you would feel. Then ask yourself if that’s right.

3169

Jon, I have no problem having a discussion in real life about the graphic. However, I’m also not a dick and I think doing what you’re suggesting would be dickish. If the graphic came up then I would be all in and no friendships would be lost.

3170

Another reason France has so many problems is that it took the legal approach of “We Hereby Declare Racism/Religious Discrimination/Xenophobia ILLEGAL” but stopped right there and didn’t in any way try to see if said laws were having any effect whatsoever, because they took the vaunted “color-blind” approach that so many conservatives think sufficient. They’re officially so color-blind that they can’t even legally keep track of whether there even IS continued employment or housing discrimination. Without being able to do so the government can’t try to make things any better, and a lot of employers or landlords see a North African first or last name on an application or resume, and just throw it right in the “round file,” and too bad so sad for the victims of said discrimination. Naturally some of them get pretty sick and tired of getting effed in the A at every turn for the accident of their ancestry, and if they’re young and stupid, they’re easy targets for Al Qaeda/ISIL recruitment.

3171

Ooo, ooo, let me guess: could one of the common factors be “an underdeveloped political culture due to having been colonized in fairly recent memory?”

3172

Yes, colonised by Arabs.

Arab imperialism is a huge problem throughout the Muslim world. All the Muslim countries which were progressive or were heading that way, or had a moderate/progressive local brand of Islam are rapidly going backwards due to Arab/Wahabbi cultural and religious imperialism.

3173

The problem here is that the meme Teiman posted was of a conservative Trump supporter reiterating a common conservative viewpoint in her own words. The response RoyalWe posted was a comic drawn by a conservative putting words into the mouth of and propagating a misconception about liberals. The two are nowhere near equal.

It illustrates perfectly the divide between conservatives and everyone else in this country. Notice how I did not say “conservatives and liberals”? That’s for good reason. Hard core conservatives want to think they’re fighting a war with “liberals” over the politics of America. That’s a joke. People like the author of that comic, the lady in the meme and so many others who identify as conservatives are really fighting a war against everyone who does not believe exactly as they do. That means liberals, the media, Jews, Muslims, Latin Americans, immigrants, the majority of African Americans, the majority of academia, the majority of the LGBTQ community and pretty much anyone who doesn’t fall into any of those categories but still doesn’t agree with what’s happening. That is a big fucking war on a whole lot of fronts, and we all know what happens when you try to fight a big fucking war on too many fronts. #dailygodwin

Seriously though, I don’t believe for a second that @RoyalWe is racist or an Islamaphobe. Nothing in his many and well written arguments in these forums would seem to indicate that. Even the comic isn’t really proof, as that is exactly the sort of misguided misinformation that conservative media uses daily to reinforce it’s viewpoint. “Some Muslims are extremist and have terrible ideological views, and we can’t tell them apart, so they all are dangerous”. Repeated over and over again with phrases like Extreme Vetting and The Safety of America it becomes an argument that many otherwise intelligent and caring people can find merit in. I live in the heart of Red country, I see this every day. Good people, caring people, smart people, adhering to an ideology that has misled them with alternative facts and terrible false analogies.

The lady in that video is a lost cause. When you answer “No” to that question literally right after stating that all religions deserve respect you’ve pretty much proven you are neither intelligent, caring or a particularly good person. However, just as the comic misrepresents liberals, that lady misrepresents conservatives. I think there will be far more conservatives who gradually become more and more disgusted and outraged over the Trump Administration’s actions than there will be blind faith supporters like that lady. It will take time though, it’s only been a month since he took office, so patience is the key. I’d like to see @RoyalWe stick around and continue to discuss politics with us for awhile, both to experience the viewpoint from the other side and because I’m very interested in how that viewpoint might change over the coming months.

3174

In fact, it’s the official position of the GOP, which simultaneously fights for the religious freedom to discriminate against gays and for a religious test to enter the country.

This isn’t necessary - no matter how many Muslim friends RoyalWe has, it’s still an anecdote. One or ten or even 50 families of Muslims saying they want the US to ensure that “bad Muslims” don’t come to the country and give the religion a worse name here still doesn’t make things like the travel ban and the phrase “radical Islamic terrorism” useful. No one is saying the US shouldn’t try to figure out if individuals with ties to terror organizations are trying to immigrate to the US. The protests aren’t about heightened security, they are about inhumane treatment of people purely because of their religion and/or apparent race. We want to keep terrorists out. That doesn’t mean keeping out all Muslims or Muslim-ish immigrants, it doesn’t mean locking up 5 year olds and making a hijab-wearing woman wait 20 hours in a cell without her kids, and it doesn’t mean angry twitter rants about every instance of violence by a Muslim while keeping silent about ethnically motivated violence by white people.

This is not a distortion of the conservative position. The GOP is officially against religious discrimination when it applies to Christians who want to deny service to gays, but for it when it applies to increased scrutiny of Muslim immigrants. It’s not a narrowly held view. Your comic distorts the liberal position, even if there are liberals who have said the things it contains, because the official platforms of liberal groups are against the problematic beliefs, regardless of what religion has them. No one is asking Christians with fundamentalist beliefs to leave the country the way that Bill Maher said would be OK for keeping Muslims out. It is not reasonable to think, “I don’t want people who believe X to come to this country,” even though it is reasonable to strongly disagree with their beliefs and want them to either change them or deal with the rule of law that overrides them. Maher is way out in right field on this issue, because his hatred of religion makes him an equal-opportunity bigot when it comes to religious people. Embracing him when he speaks that way about Muslims, but not when he says it about Christians is hypocritical, but of course the same is true of the reverse (liking his condemnation of Christianity but not of Islam). I dislike the thrust of his view in both cases, even though I fundamentally agree that religious beliefs are more harmful than helpful. I dislike the idea of therefore preventing people from having those beliefs or condemning them for them, because I’d prefer to simply allow them the way we allow all sorts of silly superstitions, habits, and ideas: they are perfectly acceptable views, as long as you don’t try to base public policy on them, since public policy needs to be based on evidence and the needs of the public.

3175

When I’m at work and/or among friends (many of whom are coworkers), if politics comes up, I’m not afraid to share my views. I know some of my friends disagree, and that’s fine. We don’t talk about it much, because talking about politics with friends and coworkers is annoying, but I don’t hide from it.

I would happily point any of those people to threads like this where I’ve commented on politics or religion, and I wouldn’t be afraid if they saw what I say, because I don’t have different beliefs publicly and privately.

@RoyalWe - would you show your “Muslim friends” this thread or anything on this message board? Would you unironically share that horrible comic with them? Would you share it publicly on your Facebook page and make sure your “Muslim friends” see it?