3262

Not to rag on your dad, Nesrie, because no doubt that attitude is a slice of Trump’s support.

But goddamn if it isn’t the saddest thing that we (humans, I mean) will consistently side with fear and tribal ingroup-outgroup bullshit instead of, oh, I dunno, the guy who has literally spent his career and life fighting for the working class against the 1%.

3263

The stuff Trump says resonates with a lot of people. I know we say “crazies” on here a lot, but that’s inaccurate. I think the people that believe Trump is a good choice support his statements because he supposedly “says the stuff no one else has the courage to say” or something like that.

There is a significant portion of the US population that believes Mexican/South American immigrants (note that I didn’t even use the qualifier “illegal”) are taking jobs, pushing down pay rates, and ruining the economy. These immigrants change the flavor of the regions they settle in and bring their poverty and violence to the US. Additionally, there’s a lot of people that think the Muslim religion and values are alien, inscrutable, backwards and violent and further that the only way to curb terrorism is to excise this religion from the world.

The only point I agree with per the Trump supporters is that there probably are a lot more people that believe these things than are willing to openly say in public.

3264

Yes, for a nation of immigrants we sure have a giant nativist streak.

3265

It’s okay; I understand what you mean. I was so shocked when he walked into my house this year and went into a political rant within five minutes of our visit and then started gushing over Trump. He’s never been what I would call conservative, fiscally or socially. He is just fed up. He sees all his money go to taxes, everything around him gets more expensive. He’s scared my job will go to India eventually…

My dad wants to protect what he has, and he doesn’t feel he has enough. I don’t know exactly what Trump is saying that makes him think Trump can help with this, but I doubt my dad cares whether or not Muslims can get into the country. Don’t get me wrong, my dad generally isn’t a selfish guy, I wouldn’t say exactly prejudice either, after all he has two biracial girls, but he just feels like he’s losing everything he’s worked for a little each day and the people in charge of the country right now… they just don’t care. And this isn’t a minor fear, it’s to the point where he’ talking to me about not spending money on him if he winds up in the hospital because he doesn’t want to ruin my life. Several people in this branch above me feel this way.

3266

Maybe “crazy” isn’t the right word? How about stupid? Because they are stupid people for believing those things.

Although maybe it’s not even stupid… it’s just a willingness to be less than thoughtful. It’s just being willing to turn off your brain, and listen to someone babble stuff, and accept it without thinking about it at all. On some level, it’s like wanting to be a little kid again, where someone else will just take care of you. Don’t worry about all these bad things, trump is going to wave a magic wand and make it all go away.

It’s the exact same mentality that was seen in Germany in the 30’s. IT’S FUCKING EXACTLY THAT.

I’m sorry, I’m trying to find some way to say this that isn’t directly insulting to Nesrie, but I just can’t. I absolutely cannot pretend like this stuff is anything other than reprehensible. And it’s not just Trump. The people who eat this stuff up are just as bad. Hitler wouldn’t have killed millions of people if idiots hadn’t nodded their heads and cheered when he spouted his bullshit.

3267

Stupid is not the right word either. I would say scared is better, and that is what Trump is playing on. He’s playing on a lot of fears, different kinds of fear and different levels. His opposition is stupid if they think that doesn’t matter. You can’t get votes by invaliding fear. That fear is real, and they need address it in order to win Trump supporters away.

3268

Yeah, I ninja edited it… and like I said, I’m sorry if it’s offensive to you. I don’t intend it as such… but I just can’t sit by idly while this kind of thing takes place, especially in my own damn party. Honestly, I had kind of distanced myself from a party identification over the past few years, but now I feel almost like I have a responsibility to be a republican who is not fucking batshit crazy.

This kind of stuff though is so profounding antithetical to absolutely everything this country is founded on. It is in direct opposition to everything that makes America great. And while I may be regarded as naive for thinking so, I absolutely still believe in American exceptionalism. America is the greatest nation on earth. But not if we go down the road that Trump is laying out.

And I will not simply give people a pass, and say “Oh, they’re just scared,” when they support bullshit like this.

No. Enough of that. Those people need to be called out on their bullshit. They are fucking racists and bigots, and the shit they are latching onto is bad.

Are they scared? Probably. ALL RACISTS AND BIGOTS ARE SCARED. That’s where fucking racism and bigotry comes from. It’s not an excuse.

3269

I don’t even think stupid is the right word. Fearful, maybe?

I don’t think it’s dumb or nuts to think that immigrants change the country. They do. Historically, any large influx of people causes a shift in the country. Mostly in positive ways (IMHO) but if you fear change, or feel the changes are impacting your income in a negative way, then it’s easy to blame the foreigners for “ruining” things. Similarly, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to look at terrorist groups and dictators like ISIL, Al-Qaeda, Khomeni, Qadaffi, Saddam Hussein, PLO, etc, then read and hear the rhetoric of their leaders, and draw conclusions about the religion as a whole and the Muslim view of the West.

To those people, I think hearing Trump say things like “keep all Muslims out” and “send all the illegals back” is a relief because it mirrors what they fear.

Edit: Nesrie’s got it.

3270

Sadly not true. Some people just like to fight. Some people just enjoy the power trip of bullying others. Some people are just selfish, self-centered assholes.

3271

How can you not believe it? Trump is simply saying outright what most top GOP members have been alluding to in coded language for years. Rampant Islamophobia is nothing new. Trump just isn’t afraid to say these things.

And what’s sad is that it’s not just Fox News, but all mainstream media that has been tacitly approving such Islamophobia as if it’s a legitimate “other side” to the argument.

3272

I think it all, ultimately, comes down to fear.

Most bad people are, in their heart, terrified of something. Bullies are afraid all the time, generally of being beaten up by someone bigger.

There are folks who are just insensitive and don’t care that much about other folks… but the folks who are actually racists and bigots? Every one I’ve ever met has been driven by fear at some core level.

How can you not believe it? Trump is simply saying outright what most top GOP members have been alluding to in coded language for years. Rampant Islamophobia is nothing new. Trump just isn’t afraid to say these things.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/1/9822452...mophobia-trump

And what’s sad is that it’s not just Fox News, but all mainstream media that has been tacitly approving such Islamophobia as if it’s a legitimate “other side” to the argument.

Like I said to John, it’s definitely a case of reaping what you sow.

But I don’t think this is really the GOP. I don’t think half the American population believe in this.

What I think has happened is that the GOP found the racists and zealots useful, and they chose to foment that bigotry and hatred because it was poltically expedient to do so. Now, I would agree that on some significant level, that itself is almost as bad. And it has led to where they are now, where and openly bigoted dickhead is leading their primary.

But I still do not believe that most Republicans buy into that.

Because frankly, if they do, then this country is turbo fucked. Because they are some massive percentage of the population, and they aren’t going to just go away if they lose an election. If half the country is so deeply fucked in the head as to believe such nonsense, then welcome to Germany in the 30’s.

And that’s why this needs to end. The majority of the party needs to stand up and reject this kind of thing. We need to tell those people that we literally do not give one fuck what they say any more. That they are fucking TERRIBLE PEOPLE, and their ideas are bad. No more pretending like they are valid concerns. They are not.

3273

MMm, I am not sure why you think you are insulting me. I am not a member of the GOP, and I am certainly not a Trump supporter. I’m pretty outraged, angry and worried as hell Trump is getting as far with what he is saying. What I am trying to tell you though is I think you’re miscalculating a portion of his supporters. Some of these people are not stupid; they’re not lazy, and they’re not radical. They’re hard working middle and lower class individuals who are watching their livelihoods slip by. These aren’t the I’ll die before you take my guns, and I don’t need facts when I have the bible group. They’re not birthers, and they know that Hawaii is a state.

3274

I may be wrong, but while I think a majority of US citizens dismiss Trump’s “Mexico will build a wall” and “close immigration to all Muslims” stuff as blowhard bullshit, I think there is a secret majority that do believe these two issues are problems that need to be addressed. Especially the “radical Islam” angle.

I come across that latter one a lot more. These are perfectly reasonable people, who are fine with Muslims in theory, but as the threat of terrorism seemingly grows, they’ve slowly begun to question whether or not Muslims can actually cohabitate peacefully with people that don’t follow their faith.

3275

Well, I didn’t want to insult you by saying bad stuff about your dad.

3276

I appreciate that, and I was hesitant to bring him up because most people don’t want to make a target out of their parents… but I thought it was important to the discussion because this is a reasonable individual whose worked his entire life and will probably work right up until his body gives out who is currently a Trump supporter. Believe me, he would be the first to tell you my sister and I have said exactly what I think about some of his opinions right to face. I’m not blind about his limitations or think he has some sort of up on me because he’s my dad. But this is new… this someone you would never expect to give a mic to at a political rally and just hear crazy stuff about would be rapists. He has hunt rifle he never uses and always had locked up. He doesn’t push faith on other people, hates it when it gets pushed on him even. There is nothing here that would indicate “crazy” or obvious “stupid”, and this is part of the polling.

3277

Nesrie, your dad sounds like a decent guy who works hard, has “played by the rules” for many years, and is now extremely frustrated because the people he trusted all this time to make sure he was safe and comfortable as long as he worked hard and contributed have abandoned him. That frustration takes the form of a hatred of “politics as usual”, and is likely to manifest itself in scapegoating of Latino immigrants and fear of Muslim immigrants. That doesn’t make him a bad guy, it just means he’s frightened and being misled by the media he choses to consume. Sadly, he is not alone, not by a long shot. There is an alarming percentage of Americans these days who think exactly like him. This is where Trump gets his numbers.

I find it truly ironic that for years the conservative right has complained that “the media is liberal, and only presents liberal points of view” when they themselves have more media reach than any liberal outlet. FOX News, Rush Limbaugh and countless other conservative media sources dominate the airwaves with political “discussion” that is little more than opinion pieces disguised as news. Fact checking is optional, and no view is considered too far right or too racist/isolationist to examine. This primordial soup of misinformation gets fed to the masses daily, and it’s warped the way millions of Americans see both politics and social issues in this country.

It’s telling that in the wake of the worst tragedy in the history of the nation, the first (and still most shocking) direct terrorist attack on American soil, President Bush was quick to take to the media in support of American Muslims and point out that Islam is not terror, Islam is peace. Islam is peace. Bush said that, only days after 9/11. And here, 14 years later, President Barrack Obama has said similar things, and been ridiculed for it. The GOP has been quick to call Obama a coward for trying to point out that Muslim does not equal Terrorist, that Syrian refugees are not ISIS. And the frightened Americans talked about above, grown fat on the diet of misinformation and hate they are fed daily by the conservative right, have vilified him in social media and are worshipping Trump as a brave leader when he’s nothing but a racist isolationist.

How far the GOP has fallen from “Islam is Peace” to “Muslims are not welcome here”. Their own political media machine, designed to counter the effects of what they saw as a liberal slant to traditional media, has instead become a juggernaut driving force in the destruction of the American ideal. Democrat = Enemy. Latino = Lazy. Muslim = Terrorist. Hate = Patriotism. The GOP is rapidly heading towards full on fascism, and Donald Trump is all too willing to be Der Fuhrer.

3278

Say what you will about Florida, this is great stuff from the mayor of St. Petersburg:

3279

Part of my angst about this is that my dad has been sucked in by the super far right too, although he hasn’t officially said he supports trump. But he totally eats up the racist and Islamophobic bullshit. He just has the last remnants of his rational mind that tell him that it’s wrong. But I feel like that part is losing the fight as he gets older.

3280

There has always been one group that was the whipping boy for all that was bad, for all the fears of the American psyche. And I am not even including blacks in that equation. The Chinese, the Japanese, the Mexicans, the Irish, the Polish, the Armenians etc. Even Catholics and Jews. Muslims are just the minority du jour.

3281

Same here. And I know that neither of my parents are crazy or stupid, not in any objective sense. However, they do get all their news from Fox News and internet mailing lists. So they believe many, many untrue things. When it comes to politics, I’d call them low-information and gullible.

That whole generation still believes that anything they see on “the news” is just as reliable as if Walter Cronkite had said it.