Presidential Race 2016

Timex · 2016-01-14T09:31:11.000Z

Dan_Theman:

… then George Washington was not a natural born citizen of the US? After all , he was born in English territory. I presume the argument is that the territory became American after the war, so he and everyone else in that situation got grandfathered in. That means the only way for Cruz to make sure he can become President is by leading a conquest of Canada. To arms!!!

Ah, actually, George Washington, and all of the founding fathers, were NOT considered natural born citizens of the US. That’s why the clause in the constitution says this:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

As is always the case, Wikipedia has a bunch of stuff on this… even the guy who cited english law seemed to miss the protestant naturalization act of 1708 which said this in England:

The children of all natural born subjects born out of the ligeance [i.e. out of England] of Her Majesty Her Heirs and Successors shall be deemed and adjudged to be natural born subjects of this Kingdom to all intents, constructions, and purposes whatsoever.

Honestly, I think this stuff was pretty well settled even if not formally ruled upon by the Supreme court yet. And it’s silly to let someone like Trump dictate the terms of our national dialogue.

We should be talking about how woefully incapable someone like Trump would be of holding the office of the Presidency, not whether or not Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen.

Dan_Theman · 2016-01-14T09:33:29.000Z

Timex:

Ah, actually, George Washington, and all of the founding fathers, were NOT considered natural born citizens of the US. That’s why the clause in the constitution says this:

Why, those sneaky sons of Englishmen!!!

Stepsongrapes · 2016-01-14T09:34:02.000Z

Timex:

I don’t think we have any other category, do we? I do not believe that there has ever been any mention, in anything, of a citizen who is neither natural born nor naturalized.

It’s a logic issue: does “natural born” and “naturalized”, as categories, have their own criteria? If so, and those criteria are not “not the other”, than you have at least a third category (e.g., fitting into neither). The whole constitutional law question comes at it from that positive side: what are the requirements of “natural born”, and are they met, without recourse to whether it isn’t in the naturalized category. Whether a third category exists or doesn’t for other purposes doesn’t alter the test for “natural born” if there are positive requirements for meeting that.

You’re trying to short-circuit that analysis, but your short-circuit only works if you assume binary.

Timex · 2016-01-14T09:40:39.000Z

Stepsongrapes:

It’s a logic issue: does “natural born” and “naturalized”, as categories, have their own criteria? If so, and those criteria are not “not the other”, than you have at least a third category (e.g., fitting into neither). The whole constitutional law question comes at it from that positive side: what are the requirements of “natural born”, and are they met, without recourse to whether it isn’t in the naturalized category. Whether a third category exists or doesn’t for other purposes doesn’t alter the test for “natural born” if there are positive requirements for meeting that.

You’re trying to short-circuit that analysis, but your short-circuit only works if you assume binary.

Well, it’s kind of in the logical definition of “natural born”, isn’t it? (and yes, I realize that this is essentially the point we are discussing, and not easy to just assume)

I would offer that “natural born” means that you possess your citizenship naturally, at birth. If this is not the case, then it means you would have to acquire that citizenship through some specific means.

In the case of someone like Ted Cruz, since he did not go through any naturalization process, and yet is undisputably a US citizen now, then that means he must have had his citizenship at birth.

Stepsongrapes · 2016-01-14T09:45:35.000Z

Timex:

Well, it’s kind of in the logical definition of “natural born”, isn’t it? (and yes, I realize that this is essentially the point we are discussing, and not easy to just assume)

I would offer that “natural born” means that you possess your citizenship naturally, at birth. If this is not the case, then it means you would have to acquire that citizenship through some specific means.

In the case of someone like Ted Cruz, since he did not go through any naturalization process, and yet is undisputably a US citizen now, then that means he must have had his citizenship at birth.

’

I’d agree with you more if it was “natural citizen” vs. “naturalized citizen”. That seems inherently more binary.

Throw in the whole “born” and who knows what the reading is of what requirements that might separately impose? Again, you just can’t assume and then use it as your logical lever.

Telefrog · 2016-01-14T09:46:18.000Z

People are talking about how Donald Trump isn’t a natural born earthling. I don’t know if that holds any water, but it could spell some real trouble for him if it’s true. There are definitely some questions about it.

Dan_Theman · 2016-01-14T09:57:19.000Z

Telefrog:

People are talking about how Donald Trump isn’t a natural born earthling. I don’t know if that holds any water, but it could spell some real trouble for him if it’s true. There are definitely some questions about it.

… and the Democrats, some Democrats, are already talking about it. I really hope that’s not an issue for him.

Timex · 2016-01-14T10:00:58.000Z

Stepsongrapes:

’

I’d agree with you more if it was “natural citizen” vs. “naturalized citizen”. That seems inherently more binary.

Throw in the whole “born” and who knows what the reading is of what requirements that might separately impose? Again, you just can’t assume and then use it as your logical lever.

Well, the “born” thing means that you had your citizenship at birth, I would think.
i.e. you were born a citizen.

Stepsongrapes · 2016-01-14T10:06:19.000Z

Timex:

Well, the “born” thing means that you had your citizenship at birth, I would think.
i.e. you were born a citizen.

You’ve just made “natural” and “born” the same thing, vitiating at least one of those words, unless we’re talking about no test tube babies or something. Again, your logic all must start from a single assumption and there isn’t enough there to make it more than an assumption.

BiggerBoat · 2016-01-14T10:52:42.000Z

Kind of funny to see Nikki Haley realize she just screwed up her chances of being a VP candidate, and urgently walking back her criticisms of Rubio and Jeb! (which were originally made as a way of trying to level her Trump criticism).

Not that Jeb! is ever going to be in the running, but I still think that Rubio has a something greater than zero chance.

Scuzz · 2016-01-14T11:24:18.000Z

So Trump is now comparing himself to the great god Reagan. If anything might get him in trouble with GOP voters it would be that.

inactive_user · 2016-01-14T11:57:31.000Z

Trump might actually be a worse president than Reagan. So that would be an accomplishment.

triggercut · 2016-01-14T12:47:54.000Z

This is the most amazing thing in the history of everything.

I’ve almost learned the whole song. Can’t stop watching.

ArmandoPenblade · 2016-01-14T12:53:45.000Z

triggercut:

This is the most amazing thing in the history of everything.

I’ve almost learned the whole song. Can’t stop watching.

As I read elsewhere, any one of those girls could become the future Mrs. Trump in four, maybe five years!

triggercut · 2016-01-14T12:54:57.000Z

Armando Penblade:

As I read elsewhere, any one of those girls could become the future Mrs. Trump in four, maybe five years!

It’s the kind of thing that Kim Jong Un sends a congratulatory diplomatic cable for.

BiggerBoat · 2016-01-14T13:02:40.000Z

triggercut:

It’s the kind of thing that Kim Jong Un sends a congratulatory diplomatic cable for.

Yeah, I was about to post the same thing. It’s like from some dark future with Trump as our version of Kim Jong Un. Horrifying.

Going to go check Amazon for brain bleach.

Oghier · 2016-01-14T13:05:09.000Z

inactive_user · 2016-01-14T13:14:17.000Z

WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED

Aleck · 2016-01-14T13:18:07.000Z

triggercut:

This is the most amazing thing in the history of everything.

I’ve almost learned the whole song. Can’t stop watching.

That’s right up there with those cute kids singing racist ballads in that Louis Theroux documentary.

Dan_Theman · 2016-01-14T13:22:58.000Z

What gets me are all of the “Can’t wait to see how the libtards are going to spin this!” comments. It needs no spinning.