Oh, I’m not saying I want him to be President. He’s just about 50% as awful as the other ones (at least he didn’t hold up the ACA’s Medicaid expansion in Ohio). I’m still (almost definitely if it’s even remotely close in Oregon) voting for HRC in November.

I think the impeachment of Clinton (as well as Nader’s influence) was the key factor in losing in 2000, while Kerry couldn’t muster his National Security credentials enough in a time of war in 2004 - the Swift Boat attacks (as well as Kerry’s demeanor) were key there. I think that Obama’s relatively scandal-free (nothing personal, just the perpetual GOP attacks) administration is going to help Clinton (or Sanders) in the General this time around, though Clinton has shown a serious vulnerability in her campaigning skills - Sanders is giving her much more of a problem than he should, as did Obama in '08. Clinton really needs a Rove/Carville/Stephanopoulos/Axelrod type to really get her campaigning up.

But back to 2000/2004/2008 - as you may remember, McCain was building some pretty serious momentum in early September of '08, right up until the market meltdown and his utter failure in addressing that as a candidate in any way that even seemed possible to address it (mostly due to his need to steer towards GOP orthodoxy there).

Without the market meltdown, McCain could well have won in 2008, despite how badly the GOP should have lost (and ultimately did). On the flip side, the market meltdown was pretty much inevitable due to the policy decisions of the previous 10 years. Clinton weakened the ability to withstand it (Glass-Steagall repeal), but Bush completely obliterated the rest of it (Tax Cuts + unpaid for wars/homeland + more deregulation/less enforcement, etc.). On the good news side there, at least the market melted down before there was a chance of a McCain/Palin Administration - that would have been even more of a disaster, IMHO.

And now trunk is playing the birther card on rubio, because clearly anyone who isn’t a white man isn’t eligible to be president. Or in the case of Cruz and Rubio, white men who are vaguely ethnic.

I hate trump so much.

That Trump is playing the birther card is sweet and fitting considering the fucking GOP wielded it shamelessly against Obama for 8 years despite it having no truth whatsofuckingever, unless you believe that in the 1960s that Kenyan communists came up with a brilliant plot to send one of their sons to Hawaii for college, impregnate a white woman, spirit the white woman back to Kenya to give birth secretly, then secretly send them back to Hawaii so everyone would believe that he was born in America. Then, in 40+ years, the half-African child will become President of the United States, and the Kenyan Communists will have won!

If only that had been true, America could have been saved!

Yet you’re talking about a guy who goes from 3% to 42% gradually over a matter of months with likely Dem primary voters, often beats hypothetical republican matchups in the general election, calls himself a socialist, and self-imposes a campaign funding handicap. Not trying to be insulting or anything, but maybe he has a better idea (or his staff at least) than either of us do on the current political climate and how to campaign within it against a candidate who has almost the entirety of party support. It’s really a monumental achievement. Even if he loses, which he probably will, he made the campaign so much better on the democratic side.

I don’t think it’s possible to do that if you’re a horrible campaigner or a terrible strategist. It can’t just be the message, as the democratic primaries over the years have been full of candidates forever polling at 3% with idealistic messages who go nowhere.

Poor Jebbers. Forgotten already.

“Please Clap”

Obama really has had a pretty solid couple terms as far as scandals go. Benghazi was the biggest push I guess.

Fabricated is the word that comes to mind when discussing Obama’s Scandels.
And the actions that he did take that I disagree with where ‘for national security’ so the GOP won’t go after him for that.

The irony is that he’s married to a commie foreigner.

(Edit: but of course the Donald’s target audience doesn’t have anything against commie foreigners, so long as they’re hot.)

Let’s try this again.

The situation:

2016 appears to be a very rare snowflake of a presidential election. There have been only two or three like it since George Washington was sworn in back in 1789. A sitting president is not seeking a new term in office AND

–he is popular, especially and wildly so within his own party
–he is unmarked by scandal
–he is in full vigorous health
–he is willing to campaign for the nominee from his party to replace him, and that candidate welcomes his participation*

It happened back in 1836 when Andrew Jackson threw strong support behind Martin Van Buren and got the latter elected. In 1908, Teddy Roosevelt went all in for his buddy William Taft, and got the latter elected. If you like, we can include 1988, when Reagan pitched in for Bush (although if you want to argue that this is a poor example because Reagan’s health was on the ebb and that Bush’s strategists really didn’t want Reagan campaigning because they felt like their candidate was fully insulated from Iran-Contra questions and didn’t want to dig up that dirt, I’ll agree).

Anyway, other than that…nada. In any other situation, the sitting president was either scandalized, unpopular, in too frail of health…or, as what happened in 2000, the two candidates simply didn’t get along.

This has more implications than the Presidential campaign, too. Congresspersons, Senators, Governors, Lieutenant Governors, State Treasurers, State Attorneys General…they all stand to benefit from having a sitting president who is popular doing campaign work, because that person also raises campaign cash and fires up a base to come out and vote. All of those folks with a stake in the coming election tend to have one other thing in common with each other: they’re superdelegates for the Democratic party.

And so as we started the 2016 campaign, Hillary right has run as a proud, policy-making, high-ranking member of the Obama Administration. She can point to low unemployment figures, a tremendous record on job creation, low gas prices, at least an official cessation of wars (yes, I know), reasonably strong economic indicators, and a national healthcare plan going into effect in the last 8 years. Democrats, from this lofty height on down to state legislatures will also hope to frame things like this and run on that record, and well they should. There are plenty of arguments to be made on the validity of those claims and Republicans will make it (and they should.) But the fact remains that any Democratic candidate for elected office will need to frame all of those things as significant accomplishments of his or her party over the last eight years as part of each person’s respective candidacy. It’s a winning argument, and one they need to make.

And this should be self-evident. If you argue that the last 8 years have not been good, you are inviting the Republican running against you to point out that if things are crap with a Democrat running things, why elect another one?

Which is where Bernie’s run off the rails. In the Senate, he’s an Independent who caucuses with the Democrats, but that allows him to not get caught in political party deal making and compromises to get spending bills and funding bills passed. He can float above it all, which gives him a nice advantage. But in running for the Democratic nomination, he can’t float above it. That “D” is attached to him now. He’s gotta wear it.

And so.

I would make this point. Bernie could stand for ALL the things he’s standing for right now–Wall Street reform, single payer, affordable secondary education–without repudiating the 8 years of Barack Obama. And, I’d also make this point. Up until about 8 weeks ago, that’s exactly what he was doing, and it had a strong correlation with Bernie’s surge in popularity. It’s a position that could be nuanced fairly well. He didn’t need to run an outright insurgent campaign by any means.

But, and especially in closed-state primaries, which are coming up, it’s Democrats who are voting. It’s also cost Bernie dearly with superdels. Not only aren’t any going to defect to him, it puts a bit of a chill on picking up undeclareds.

Bernie’s message has always been sexy to liberals. They’re not the ones he’s ever needed to win over. Bernie, from day one, has needed to win over Democrats. And he’s decided not to do that, and it might be to late to repair that damage now.

Trying to win the nomination of the Democratic party for president while pissing off Democrats is probably not going to sit within the realms of what I would call a brilliant strategy.

And all of that failure to nuance, to fully comprehend that if he really wanted to challenge Mrs. Clinton, he’d have to embrace the gob-smacking obviousness of being a Democrat at some point is why I find his strategy to be rather rubbish.

It can’t just be the message, as the democratic primaries over the years have been full of candidates forever polling at 3% with idealistic messages who go nowhere.

The 2008 Democratic primary field:

Bill Richardson, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, John Edwards, Evan Bayh, Tom Vilsack and Dennis Kucinich. Of all those candidates Kucinich was the only one pushing an idealistic message.

2004: Edwards, Lieberman, Kerry, Clark, Mosely-Braun, Gephardt, Kucinich, Sharpton, Dean. Of those candidates, I’d grant you ideology on Kucinich again and maybe Dean, although other than his anti-war stance, the rest of his platform was pretty Democratic Party standard stuff.

Just saying, not “full of”.

The thing is though, trump is the part of the GOP who fostered this crap.

And he continues to pull the bullshit, “hey, this is just what people are saying! Sometimes I retweet stuff! I didn’t say it!”

Anyone who ever claims that he has any kind of strength is a fool. He’s a coward, pure and simple.

I must have misinterpreted your original argument, as I thought you were saying that the Sanders campaign was full of utter incompetence and repeated tragic errors in strategy ever since he started. Distancing himself from Obama in the primaries may be a serious strategic error, as you say. Certainly won’t help him with the superdelegates down the road. The fact he isn’t softening his worldview for ‘democrats’ (as opposed to liberals, not sure of that dichotomy) and the superdelegates may indeed be what makes him lose in the end, but I think he has made it clear repeatedly in his campaign that he is interested in saying what he thinks on issues he cares about, and the rest is superfluous to him. When asked about Obama he’ll give his honest assessment, which I think many liberals and some democrats would share, which is an odd mix of disappointment and admiration. His campaign is calling for a political revolution, after all! It’s hard to do that when you often say how much you like the current president (i.e. what has become the status quo).

I think that he has handicapped his campaign in a number of ways: limits on funding sources, no PACs, unwillingness to soften/change his message for strategic purposes, and won’t distance himself from the socialist label. Within those constraints I think the campaign has done a tremendous job challenging Hillary and changing the tone of the whole primary campaign.

To be honest I only had Kucinich and Dean in mind, probably shouldn’t have assumed there were more I forgot.

As Triggercut mentions, this is a very unusual election for all sorts of historical reasons.

You have a two-termer wrapping up, but his vice president is not in the running to replace him. That’s practically unheard of. Then again, Cheney didn’t run in 2008, but it’s universally agreed upon that’s pure evil.

I mused about this way back in 2011 or so, but I was thinking that Obama might want to replace Biden on the 2012 ticket so that he can groom a successor (assuming at the time that Biden would be too old to run in 2016). But Obama stuck with Biden, and Biden could have run, but opted out. So, yeah, it’s very unusual for this to happen.

While I’m ruffling feathers…(sorry!)

I guess what really has set me into Grumpyville, population: Me regarding Bernie Sanders is the notion that his campaign has always been about moving the conversation to the left, and that it was some kind of moral victory and whatnot. (And I’m not talking about anyone here; I’ve seen it espoused elsewhere so honest apologies if this is straw-manning!)

I guess I wish there was a way for him to run as strongly as he has for less money than he’s spent, because a lot of folks have sent him a few buck, folks who might have strong needs for that cash too.

The next 4 years is going to lead to either the complete discrediting of centrist Democrats or extremist Republicans, or more likely both.

That’s an interesting point, but I do not agree. Their money, and Bernie’s campaign, have made a difference in the direction of the party. The way he has raised funds is part of the point he is making. He has shown the appetite for an anti-Wall Street insurgency funded by the grass roots. That’s important.

Everything about his campaign indicates his intention to make a point in the primaries, not to win the general. His funding mechanisms, his distance from Obama and his refusal to moderate his stances all point to this. A socialist who wants to taxes on the middle class in order to mount a government takeover of healthcare (this is how he will be portrayed) is not going to be president. He’s too far left of center. He is too smart not to know this.

I am thrilled he has run, and that he has run the campaign in such a principled manner. He has succeeded where Occupy failed, mustering widespread attention and support around economic inequality. I love the man for this, and for focusing one of the major parties on the problem. I want him to make a real mark on the democratic platform and philosophy going forward. The parties needed to be more different. That may happen now.

I don’t want him to win, though, as I don’t want to watch him lose to Trump, Cruz or Rubio. Hillary’s acceptable, and Hillary-moved-to-the-left-by-Bernie is better yet. Every remaining GOP candidate not named Kasich would be disastrous.

Everything about his campaign indicates his intention to make a point in the primaries, not to win the general.

This could potentially backfire though, as it could fracture the party when Bernie doesn’t win the primary… or, if he wins, he’s likely to lose in the general, both outcomes could actually hurt the progressives more than simply having Hillary win.

The Kasich who just diverted funds away from PP yesterday? Yeah, that guy only appears moderate when stood up next to the crazy-ass mofos that constitute the remainder of his party’s candidates.