To go with the salty [citation needed] or a more substantive response?

Eh, kiddo didn’t take a nap today and I’m tired and grumpy. Short version: Government spending is sometimes more useful than encouraging private spending. Tragedies of the commons, and all that. Timex, you’ve become a reasonable part of P&R over the years – do you really think that Democrats or any other lefty organization sees gov’t spending as a goal, rather than a means to an end?

Because spending goes down so much under republicans…

No, i don’t believe that most Democrats believe that spending is the actual goal. But at the same time, i think they are more willing to grow spending with the intention of doing more to help people, sometimes without considering the (real) consequences of over spending, or without wanting to really focus on efficiency in that spending. Not because they actually like wasting money, of course, but i think sometimes out of a belief that all cuts are intended to harm the poor.

Democrats tend to like government spending, because they see government as a major tool for making the world better.

Republicans, or perhaps more correctly at this point, conservatives, have the same goals. They just believe that private industry and liberty can play a more central role.

And the reality is, both are critical elements of good public policy. Industry is critical to public well-being, because because jobs and economic prosperity are what drive everything. Without them, everything collapses. But there are things which government can do that private industry and charity won’t, or can’t. And when focused on those things, government can do good things. And when industry is allowed to grow effectively, it can fund those government efforts through a growing tax base from not only corporations but from the public earning more income.

This is why Kasich is so appealing to me. He doesn’t just say he wants to destroy the government and burn it all down like Cruz. He specifically recognizes the good that government can do, and has a track record of supporting it. But he also knows how to cut out waste and focus spending on useful stuff.

And that’s what the government needs. Someone who isn’t afraid to dig deeper than the ideological surface and actually figure out how to make things work in a sustainable way.

If I took Kasich at his word on this, he would be appealing. I just think he is too beholden to donors (Specifically the Kochs) to not try and slash and burn government. Ironically, the only Republican who I think would actually do what you’re saying is Trump of all people.

How you spend the money is also important- with my idea that the most efficient way to spend tax dollars is on jobs. More jobs for people (esp gov jobs)= more people spending and producing than being paid for. Some things pols spend money on is inefficient, and does not recirculate into the economy but ends up in a hedge fund somewhere.

Can anyone explain how cutting the top tax rate and/or capital gains taxes is supposed to create jobs? Isn’t that the GOP economic mantra in a nutshell?

So far as I know, innovation and demand drives job creation. Making a big pile of money bigger for a small percentage of people isn’t going to do squat. But maybe I’m stupid: As the reddit saying goes, explain it to me like I’m five.

If it was just that though, if the GOP truly believes that federal spending is inefficient and debt and deficit are a problem that needs fixing right now, I could live with that - even though I never hear any Republican connect the dots between how “out of control” federal spending is supposedly ruining the economy. Healthcare, defense and social security are the largest budget drivers. Social security can easily get fixed without raising the retirement age. We spend a ridiculous amount of money on defense and it baffles no one is saying we should spend less. Rising healthcare costs is a major problem. I have no idea how that’s supposed to get fixed.

(As an aside, if anyone is curious to see how tax dollars are actually spent, here and here are two links that clearly illustrate that.)

BUT. You don’t get just fiscal restraint with Republicans (you can argue you never get that anyway, but I digress.)
You also get religious dogma, anti-science and corporate cronyism right along with it (although the later certainly isn’t limited to just the GOP.)

Edit: This isn’t a counter to Alstein’s post by the way, just generally directed toward pro-Republicans.

Blah blah blah job creators blah blah trickle down blah blah small businesses blah blah Reagan blah freedom.

It’s science, MrGrumpy, you can’t argue with it.

You’re agreeing with me, not disagreeing. ^_^

You don’t even get fiscal restraint with Republicans- they’re perfectly happy to overspend on their own pet causes.

Control the market. Force companies to negotiate medicine prices nationwide against a government controlled board. Nationalizing the private system also helps, but medicine costs (at least in Europe) areth biggest issue.

The problem of a free healthcare market is that it doesn’t really respect market rules. The value individuals put on their own health tends to approach their own net worth, there’s no sane limit, because there’s no alternative to health. Competition could help, but then you patent medicines and processes (which in many cases are the only really -or most- effective treatment for an illness) and competition evaporates.

Republican:conservative::Democrat:socialist.

All this. Healthcare can not be a free market and function in the interests of society. It is a public good and should be treated as such.

^^^^^THIS!!!

Health care does not work as a free market. One of the basic principles of free markets is the concept of supply and demand. This is what, in theory, causes markets to balance. But even in a perfect and rational theoretical world it fails when supply or demand are fairly inelastic.

Demand for health care is inelastic.

Seriously, it does not work on free market principles. If I’m having a heart attack I don’t have the time to look up which hospital has the best prices for treatment. I’m not going to tell the ambulance driver to take me the hospital an hour away instead of the one 5 miles away. They’re going to take me to the closest hospital, right the hell now. Expecting people to also have knowledgeable and researched price comparisons for all applicable health care situations is also absurd. Especially since most health care providers, hospitals especially, go to great lengths to obscure the true costs by adding a myriad of service charges.

You want to fix health care costs skyrocketing? Let’s get everyone back to reality, and acknowledge that healthcare as a free market just doesn’t fucking work.

Well, no, the republican notion would be more general tax cuts, including those on the wealthy.

While many people may be under the belief that such tax cuts cannot possibly improve the economy, I believe they are mistaken. A more correct view would be that tax cuts targeted ONLY at the wealthy will not ALWAYS improve the economy.

A number of mechanisms can explain perfectly legitimate means by which high income tax cuts can spur economic growth. For instance, one way would be be allowing many small businesses to potentially keep more of their earnings, build up cash reserves, and then expand. Since many small businesses do not pay corporate income taxes, but instead pay individual income taxes (potentially at the top bracket), such taxes can pull money from those businesses, which can then potentially hinder economic growth. Currently, about 40-50% of income for small businesses is taxed in this way, I believe, and accounts for around 35% of all the tax revenue coming from businesses in the US.

I think that perhaps it would be useful to create a more progressive bracket system, which had the higher brackets at higher dollar amounts, like one over a million dollars.

In terms of capital gains taxes, it seems even more clear how that would tend to spur economic growth, as you are essentially increasing liquidity in the market. Here, you can see an opinion piece from Forbes that touches on some of the potential issues that stem from capital gains taxes.

While it doesn’t makes sense to embrace the dogmatic view that taxes should never go up, and that cutting them automatically increases economic growth, it’s equally naive to pretend that high tax rates only “soak the rich who can afford it” and have no impact on the rest of the society. Anything that slows economic growth harms everyone, generally the poorest members of society the most.

One of the problems with our tax system, in my opinion, is not that the tax rates are too low (I think in many cases they are in fact too high), but rather that many people are able to use loopholes to avoid paying the taxes that they would otherwise be expected to pay. When you have stories like Soros paying less than his secretary, or super rich folks having an effective income tax rate of less than 10%, the system isn’t working as intended. Which then makes the issue of arguing to raise or lower taxes overly complex, because it obfuscates who will actually be subject to those tax changes.

If it was just that though, if the GOP truly believes that federal spending is inefficient and debt and deficit are a problem that needs fixing right now, I could live with that - even though I never hear any Republican connect the dots between how “out of control” federal spending is supposedly ruining the economy.

At this point in history, the US economy is so powerful that we are able to kind of “get away with” huge spending. Because on some level we’re “the only game in town”. Even at very low interest rates, investors continue to pump money into our country because it’s basically a “sure thing”. But it’s unwise to believe that is guaranteed to always be the case. Building up a huge debt is potentially disasterous in the long term, when you eventually get to the point where you can’t pay it, default, then no one is willing to lend you money any more and you cannot pay for the services you use. I mean, we’re seeing this in Greece. While the US certainly isn’t Greece, it’s kind of absurd to just try and handwave away trillions of dollars in debt as though it doesn’t matter.

Also, as that debt increases, it means we’re paying a larger and larger chunk of money just on the interest every year. In 2013, we paid around $413 billion, just to service the debt. Everything else aside, that’s a huge amount of money. And if interest rates were higher we’d be cranking out even more in interest payments.

Tossing aside the gloom and doom notions of economic apocalypse, just consider the more concrete question of, “What could we do with $413 billion dollars?” You can do a lot of shit with $413 billion dollars. To put that in perspective, we give NASA $17 billion. So the interest payments on our debt could fund NASA 24 times over. Imagine the shit we could do if we gave NASA 24 times as much money. So, if nothing else, our huge debt means that we are basically wasting a huge amount of money.

Healthcare, defense and social security are the largest budget drivers. Social security can easily get fixed without raising the retirement age. We spend a ridiculous amount of money on defense and it baffles no one is saying we should spend less. Rising healthcare costs is a major problem. I have no idea how that’s supposed to get fixed.

Well, I’m not sure we can really fix social security without raising the retirement age. At least, I haven’t seen any plan which seems feasible, but I’d be interested in learning more about it. But you’re absolutely right that medicare and social security entitlements constitute the vast majority of the bugetary problem we face. And yes, Healthcare costs are a massive part of that. I’m generally of the belief that a major driver of healthcare cost increases stems from the way in which we tend to pay for healthcare. Since consumers are generally “motivated buyers” in many cases and can’t really afford to shop around when they are dying, it can distort the market. Beyond that though, even for routine preventive care, the way insurance works in our country means that healthcare costs are generally opaque to consumers, which essentially prevents them from acting as rational actors, which removes one of the normal downward forces on prices.

In terms of defense spending, it’s worth noting that the US position, militarily, is somewhat unique. A major aspect of this can be seen when you look at one of the chief missions of the US Navy; to ensure free and open seas. A big part of that involves projection of power around the globe, something which really no one else does, and which accounts for a major reason why we pay so much more than everyone else. Other countries are much more concerned with their immediate little bubble around their nation, while the US is concerned with guarding the whole world. Because, frankly, no one else is gonna do it. And making sure that sea lanes stay open and free is of fairly critical importance to our non-military interests. It’s one of the major enablers of global trade, which drives massive economic growth not only in the US but everywhere else. And it honestly does not just happen by magic. If you removed the US Navy from the equation, things would not stay as they are. You’d see a major destabilization of shipping traffic, which would result in significant economic impacts across the entire economy.

Beyond that though, we also need to remember that the US Defense industry ends up funding a huge amount of technology that eventually results in dramatic improvements to the average person’s life. Defense spending created the internet, enabling the entire modern economy which depends upon it today. It created GPS and the shift in how we get around that came with it. Research groups like DARPA have consistently pushed the envelope and funded advanced research that improves our lives, and the Small Business Innovative Research (SBIR) program provides a great incubator for emerging small businesses in our economy.

So, it’s just something that needs to be taken into account when talking about Defense spending. It’s not all bombs and death.

Certainly, that’s not to say that protracted wars that we don’t need to fight aren’t a massive waste of our resources, and should be avoided when at all possible.

BUT. You don’t get just fiscal restraint with Republicans (you can argue you never get that anyway, but I digress.)
You also get religious dogma, anti-science and corporate cronyism right along with it (although the later certainly isn’t limited to just the GOP.)

I don’t think you have to though. Moderate republicans like Kasich, or Huntsman before him, do not seem to be anti-science. There is nothing about conservatism which DEMANDS a rejection of science. It’s merely that those groups have become overly vocal on the right.

But that’s why it’s important to support moderate conservatives, who aren’t absurdly dogmatic on such issues. Because those extreme views are damaging, and get in the way of real, rational conservatism.

The thing that seems so strange to me about the political situation in America is that the Democrats are right-leaning centrists for the most part who only espouse slightly-left issues on rare occasions, mainly for public consumption. As if ACA is somehow socialistic when it maintains and supports the grotesque profits of the entire healthcare corporate structure in the manner to which they have become accustomed. And Republicans are ultra-right crazy people one and all at this point, so far as I can tell. Yet somehow they get votes because people are (still!) afraid of communism and think that socialism is some kind of horrible evil. Yet there are no socialists in America in prominent positions and socialist parties are tiny, negligible jokes. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, for example, are nowhere near socialism. They are simply ordinary run of the mill liberals in a time when there are practically no liberals left. And a similar situation obtains in the UK where the Labour party is center-right, controlled largely by people who are indistinguishable from neocons who care nothing at all about actual working people; they are only left in the sense that the Conservatives are further right still.

So I disagree with your idea of tax cust being effective currently, but that is because, as you note, some of the very top tiers use loopholes and exploits (often intentionally created by lobby groups or on behalf of political donors) to reduce their tax level to unethically low levels. I am absolutely of the mind that taxing investment income should be at least as high as income, if not higher. The money multiplier for marginal dollars to low income persons vastly beats that of high income persons, so all other things being equal it is always preferential to increase dollars towards those lower on the income scale. It is simply more efficient for public policy at growing the economy.

The other issue with calling for tax cuts is that, currently, that only meaningfully impacts those at the top of the scale. There is a large number of working people who have, effectively, almost no federal tax burden due to them not making enough in earnings. It would take a significant cut to have much meaningful impact on those in the middle quintiles either. I’m sorry, but a 3-4% cut in my federal tax rate wouldn’t even be enough to put a down payment on a car, let alone make a serious improvement in my financial situation. Don’t get me wrong having a little extra cash is nice, but the proposed tax cuts would only have limited utility for me.

No, the bulk of the tax cuts would only manifest themselves for the wealthy, aka the group least needing them. But from an efficiency standpoint tax cuts for the wealthy are one of the least effective policies that can be made. Much more of that money is going to wind up idle, rather than working in the economy, compared to the same number of dollars given to low income earners. The only thing it would do is favor more wealth accruing to those at the top of the scale already, continuing the trend we’ve seen for 35 years where the middle class and below are staying financially stuck in place, or even losing ground, while all benefits from economic growth go to the top.

The invisible hand of the market is just about to slap the shit out of you for your heresy.

Timex, I keep saying this as it bears repeating: Kasich is NOT A MODERATE in pretty much any sense of the word. I’ve bumped into the guy long before his emergence on the national stage, and he’s always been a hardcore conservative firebrand. However, he has a dose of common sense pragmatism that makes him electable by giving a broader appeal (he also ran against a candidate who was plagued by scandals following a different series of scandals by politicians in the more liberal Ohio areas, and certainly didn’t suffer in the comparison). He doesn’t shout his beliefs at the top of his lungs, anymore. If that’s what being a moderate is these days, then the moderate umbrella is a whole lot wider than what it once was and that’s pretty sad to me.

Mind you, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a hardcore conservative firebrand as long as one’s beliefs are sincere. That’s why seeing his campaign revel in this unearned “moderate” label comes across as disingenuous to me and only serves to heighten my sense of concern. He’s not an evil or even bad person, and he hasn’t been a disaster for Ohio. If he somehow became President then I wouldn’t flee to Canada. However, I really want to see people get elected or not based on accurate reasoning.

Do the american president have any power?

Obama looked like a guy promising to fix what was wrong with Washington, but instead ended being Bush 3.0, implementing laws in direct opposition things he promised in their campaign.

He also looks like a mental vampire ha leech all his lifeforce from him.

I feel at this moment, only special interest (rich people agendas) control the USA governement.

The President has tremendous power, but of course it’s multiplied if Congress is on his side. All kinds of military adventures and social experiments are possible with just the authority of the commander in chief and the ability to issue executive orders or to direct the federal bureaucracy to act as the President wishes. It’s just a question of how much any given President wants to use that authority because there may be political blowback from any positive action.

Of course you’re right that the rich control the government. This is why the entire banking industry was let off essentially scot-free after the bailout debacle.

No none. Go back to bed.

Well, how are you defining a moderate?
The reason I describe him as moderate, is because he tempers his conservative beliefs with more liberal takes on some of them. For instance, his policy regarding the environment is not a hard core right wing perspective. Nor is his perspective regarding social welfare programs, or national healtcare systems, etc.

Kasich is, clearly, much more moderate than many of the other republican candidates.

I think that most people, he holds some views which are right in line with very conservative talking points. But then other views are less so. So overall, I consider him a moderate.