Puzzle vs game?

Games
21

Doesn’t the phrase “puzzle game” rather suggest it’s a hybrid rather than that puzzles are a subset of games?

I think the main difference is that puzzles, strictly speaking and has been pointed out above, have a particular solution intended by the designer (i.e. a jig saw puzzle, sudoku) or a particular success state (i.e. a Rubik’s Cube). The typical way to “fail” a puzzle is to not solve it.

A game instead is a system with a particular set of rules where the player is tasked to fulfil a certain objective within those rules (reach the right-most edge of the screen, defeat the enemy armies on the map, score a set number of points before time runs out, and so on).

The more complex the rules, the more it veers into simulation territory, where there are perhaps no particular objectives to fulfil, and the “game” may instead be either a proper simulation or a “toy” in the Will Wright sense of the word. Something like Cities: Skylines doesn’t really have an end state.

22

Puzzles, depending on the constraints imposed by the rules, might have more than one solution. It’s not the same to say, for example, use these rules to reach the exit than use these rules to reach the exit in the less amount of turns ever possible.

23

I think you mean that there might be more than one way to solve a puzzle. That certainly seems fair, but the end state is the same regardless of how you end up solving it. But perhaps I misunderstand you.

As regards the second sentence, I think you’re thinking of a puzzle game hybrid? Something like a chess puzzle, i.e. solve this situation in X turns.

24

A chess puzzle is an even more clear and discrete example of what I have above with a Panzer General type situation. Where you take the rules and pieces of something that is clearly a game, and construct a restricted scenario where there is one, or a very limited number of, solution due to piece arrangement and constraints (turns/ time).

25

I think most of us agree on what a puzzle is. The problem seems to be defining what a game is and how that relates to puzzles. Are puzzle games and, if not, why not and what makes a game a game?

Puzzle represent the extreme of mechanical constraints (at least from my point of view) that leave nothing to chance or skill for the average player. Imprecision in input and unknowns create the need to react to something you can’t predict when interacting with a non-puzzle.

Note that for a non average player that’s not true. A kid would not perceive a puzzle the same way we do (can’t predict outcomes and thus interacts with it as with a more reactive experience) , and a savant could take something we call a game-but-not-a-puzzle and perceive it as a puzzle (since pretty much anything that requires input and runs on a computer has one “optimal solution” only it’s normally too complex to see) .

I think the discussion would be best served by running a parallel “is a visual novel a game”?. Which represents the other extreme of no mechanics whatsoever. :P

26

(As an aside, it’s important to remember that if someone’s answer to “is a visual novel a game?” is no, that starts the slippery slope that eliminates point-and-click adventures, text adventures, and a lot of RPGs from being called “games.” That discussion only ever goes that one way, unfortunately, so it’s not very productive.)

27

I agree. I’m inclusive at both ends of the spectrum. Full mechanical rigidity (puzzle) and no mechanics whatsoever (visual novels)

28

Maybe add a category for “faux games”, i.e. things that pretend to be games, but actually aren’t, like Firewatch?

(Note: I may not be entirely serious here. Also, I quite liked Firewatch, whatever it is.)

29

Yeah, that conversation is almost exclusively used for some kind of weird purity test / e-peen measurement. It’s much more useful to think of puzzles and visual novels as both degenerate games. They’re games, but also not-games, and that distinction is as important as it needs to be for the purposes of the current conversation.

30

It’s not as simple, by that definition, Chess and Go are puzzles, you just can’t memorize all the possibilities.

More eloquently put. I suppose one way to unsatisfyingly define it is if the thing has a small enough solution space and expects you to explore it deeply in your head, it’s a puzzle. In algorithmic terms, if a program figures out the paths to the end state, it’s solving a question, if it’s optimizing some variables for the next n states, where current+n is less than all end states, it’s not.

Again, that’s not really satisfying, at least because that’s not how we think we think.

31

I love stuff like that. Not chess puzzles specifically, but discrete puzzles using a game’s ruleset (which doesn’t make those games, in and of themselves, puzzles). Puzzle RPGs often have these (like Puzzle Quest). Neuroshima Hex Puzzle is a wonderful example, and unfortunately one that never got any additional content added to it.

Puzzles of that sort can also be a wonderful way to teach advanced mechanics of a game. This would be perfect for Into the Breach

32

I love puzzles and I guess now that I think about it this probably explains why I always loved the old Infocom text games as well as the LucasArts and Sierra point and click adventures. They really kind of had a foot in both genres.

33

Yes, those are games comprised of puzzles linked together by story.

34

To me, a puzzle is a finished entity (solution) that the maker breaks down into pieces or parts for the user to figure out how to put back together. Not just in the physical sense, as a jig-saw puzzle, but with anything. Usually there is only 1 correct answer, but not always. All of the pieces needed to solve a puzzle are provided to the user (or can be found). The user will not have to create anything to solve a puzzle. An example could be like a Jumble Word Puzzle in the daily paper. All of the letters are provided, and the user just has to put them in the correct order to spell the word.

Hybrids are games that include puzzles, but are not strictly a puzzle by themselves. Adventure games are usually hybrids because during the course of the game, you come across puzzles to solve. The entire game is not a puzzle though.

Calling a video game a puzzle is only derogatory to me when it tries to disguise the fact that it’s a puzzle. I wasn’t offended by Puzzle Pirates for example, because I clearly knew what it was. Other games may contain puzzles, and again, this doesn’t usually create a negative for me.

However when someone calls a game like Northgard a puzzle, that to me can be taken negatively. It suggests that the player expected a different outcome from playing the game, but felt that it was just a bunch of pieces that had to be put in the correct order to solve it. I understand the similarity they are making, but I would disagree that it’s an actual puzzle. It would be more appropriate to say it has “puzzle-like” qualities.

35

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider solved games (e.g. Checkers and Tic-Tac-Toe) as puzzles. A specific board-state with a specific goal is pretty clearly a puzzle, e.g. chess puzzles.

I would say that for most turn-based games, you can reasonably call a single turn a “puzzle” of optimization. However, the longer term context of what you consider optimal in each round changes, which makes it dynamic, and so no longer a simple puzzle.

A straw-man definition that keeps coming up in my head is that puzzles behave deterministically. One of the reasons that solved games become puzzles is that you assume perfect play on both sides, so you can predict your opponents moves N plays into the future for arbitrary N. I’m not comfortable claiming that introducing an RNG into a puzzle makes a not-puzzle (although I’m not sure that it’s wrong either), but it’s a good rule of thumb, I think.

36

I think determinism is important, even if it doesn’t move the conversation much because it’s still dependent on a subjective analysis of complexity, since once you get into statistical analysis a single solution might be the best solution most of the time, but not always. So you can’t solve everything from the get go even with a very limited set of variables (which is what makes most puzzles feel like puzles to most of us). Non determinism makes the problem more complex and thus makes it harder for it to be solved as a puzzle vs. as a more interactive exploration (a non-puzzle). For most humans the introduction of non deterministic outcomes, or a deterministic but ofuscated system (so we cover most AIs in games) or a human oponent reacting to moves, the ability to predict every dissapears and we don’t play as a puzzle.

Under these assumptions, a game is solved and becomes a puzzle for either a very limited and strict set of mechanics (so it can be aprehended without help) or through a certain equipment and access to deep analysis. For most of us Chess or checkers are not solved and we don’t play them as puzzles.

37

So what’s your opinion on the subject @tomchick?

38

That you guys are great. :) It’s pretty cool to introduce a topic and have these kinds of responses. The internet might have scuttled the republic by getting Donald Trump elected, but on the other hand, it lets me listen in on discussions like this.

Honestly, you guys are kind of helping me hammer out my opinion, so I can’t add much to this thread that hasn’t already be said. I do tend to use puzzle as a dismissive way to characterize gameplay that I don’t like, but it helps to be able to articulate it better than just leaning on a word that means different things to different people.

So from this thread, I think my entirely derivative takeaway is that a puzzle is a challenge with an optimized solution set by the designer, in which you’re working within the constraints of a deterministic system that minimizes creative input. Games like Neuroshima Hex, Into the Breach, Gloomhaven*, and Panzer General are puzzle-like, but clearly not puzzles. Lara Croft pushing a barrel into the water to trigger x then y then z is a puzzle. A Rubik’s Cube is a puzzle. Gabriel Knights cat-fur-and-syrup mustache is a puzzle.

But here’s the thing: I wouldn’t characterize puzzles, pure puzzles, as games. Games can have puzzle elements or even pure puzzles, but to me, games are a form of entertainment in which I have some sort of creative input. That’s just me, of course, and I’d never seriously argue against someone with that definition, any more than I’d argue that games are art.

-Tom

* ha ha, kidding! Or am I?

39

I understand what you are getting at, and in terms of preference of gameplay I think I tend to agree with your assessment. However, there are games that are pretty much the epitome of puzzle games that indeed require a ton of creative input to reach a solution. Stuff like Spachem/Opus Magnun, Drod… etc . What do you make of those? I think it would be pretty unusual to call those, whether looking at the individual challenges or the whole structure, non-puzzles.

Maybe the absence or presence of the need of creative input to solve a challenge determines whether the challenge (be it a puzzle or not) is compelling for a specific player more than serving as a yardstick to measure whether something isa puzzle or not. That is, it’s the difference between a good game and a not so good one, or a good puzzle or a trivial one.

If you are familiar with the concept of flow in game design, it could be perhaps applied to deterministic or tightly controlled challenges to wage whether it’s in the sweet spot, too hard/ofuscated or too easy (and in this last case the problem is solved “like a puzzle” instead of like a more complex challenge that needs creative input).

40

I’ve not played Into The Breach yet so I’ve no idea what’s being said over on the thread but I get the impression it’s a puzzle-y strategy game and most people seem to love it.

Casting my mind back to Mario + Rabbids, there were several people criticising it for feeling puzzle-y and not open enough like XCOM. It had challenges, a handful of which had very rigid solutions due to turn limitations (like clear the map in one turn with X, Y and Z characters, reach this zone by turn X etc.) so I considered those ‘pure’ puzzle levels. As an aside:

Yeah, exactly this. Limitations can make you think outside the box with whatever’s at your disposal and discover new techniques that transfer well to other scenarios.

The rest of Mario + Rabbids’ tactical battles were a lot more open with plenty of room for creative play. If you were going for perfect scores or found yourself in a really tight spot then you had to puzzle the most efficent path out but I don’t think that’s much different to any other challenging turn-based game, really.

XCOM, Age of Wonders 3, Antihero, Invisible Inc. etc. they all have those critical knife-edge turns where one wrong move could be the end. They’re puzzle-like but whether those tense scenarios are borne out of design (like a puzzle challenge) or a series of unfortunate events doesn’t really bother me, the result is the same: I have to think my way out, and I love that.

I suppose a pure puzzle or more puzzle-like level is easier to restart and trial and error brute force through because there’s not a multi-session or 30 minute+ dramatic and unscripted crescendo.

Another thing to consider is how the Zachtronics games are considered puzzlers but have very wide solution spaces and lots of room for creativity. I think of something like the Frozen Synapse/Cortex games and their granularity of control and the breadth of options you have at any given moment and the critical knife-edge turns you find yourself in can be bizarrely overwhelming and claustrophobic. There has to be a way out of this… Right? Can I find it? Seconds never felt so vast. They’re not puzzle games but in those moments they certainly feel like it. I mean, you can even test and tweak different tactical manoeuvres before committing your turn or proposed ‘solution’.

All that said, I don’t tend to stick with pure puzzle games for long, despite enjoying them in small doses. I haven’t played Opus Magnum but I adored SpaceChem so I think I generally prefer puzzlers with some flexibility/fluidity. Things like Rubik’s Cubes, Soduku and Towers of Hanoi do absolutely nothing for me so this is something I’m definitely wrestling with internally.

An interesting topic!