Qt3 Boardgames Podcast: Brass, The Mind, Metal Dawn, Railroad Ink

@JoshL, your comments about the non-legacy Betrayal game are certainly my take on it, as well. However, I think the appeal of the legacy version is growing a set of rules and playing pieces with the group. Whereas the original Betrayal just dumps you into a pile of stuff, some of which will be picked out for whatever scenario you happen to roll, the legacy version seems to slowly build up a shared toybox and a set of factions and characters that can interact with the pieces in different ways? At least I think that’s the idea based on reading everything before the strident DO NOT READ THIS YET warnings.

You misspelled “solitaire”.

I think it’s a safe bet that I will never play The Mind. I pre-hate it that much!

-Tom

I blame autocorrect. Even though I wasn’t on a phone. Anyway, maybe you’re right about Betrayal Legacy! I dunno!

The prosecution rests? Thank you. As public defender, I’d like to take the floor.

Betrayal at House on the Hill is not perfect. It has a terrible name, which sounds like someone jumbled up the words of the real title and lost a definite article along the way. It had a gajillion errors in its first printing, and probably dozens in its second. Some scenarios, even in the new edition, are not good, and a few are probably just bad. Preliminary proceedings against the Blob scenario for undue pain and suffering begin next week.

Questions about the rules are indeed tricky when you have two opposing sides, especially if the newbie at the table ends up as the traitor.

Most egregiously, even a perfectly fine scenario can tee up a haunt whose result is a foregone conclusion, due to how the other random elements shook out leading up to the haunt. I won’t bore you with my story of the time the Invisible Man got hold of a Pistol and was literally impossible to stop.

So. Is that all there is to say? String up BaHotH and good riddance? Is it, to quote my esteemed colleague, “One of the worst board games ever made”?

No, my friends. Betrayal is flawed. But it is nonetheless a flawed classic. And for good reason.

Observe that all the aforementioned problems with BaHotH–except for the downright criminal title–are a result of the game’s core premise: Random house, random items, random teams, random story. Let’s examine this closely.

Why so many errors in the scenario rules? Imagine playtesting this game. How many mistakes do you think you would find? How many test sessions is enough?

Confusing rules can lead to play mistakes, especially when you’re trying to keep secrets from your opponents. And you can’t put the most experienced player in as traitor, because randomness!

Foregone conclusions? Always possible, because of the variability of the game state when the haunt starts. Could be the survivors have a cakewalk. Could be the traitor is unstoppable. Could be you only have one of the rooms where you can search for the MacGuffin that can stop him… and it’s placed behind the Lord of All Demons.

Yes, they could have playtested more. But probably not sufficiently. And the result would have been pages of notes covering dozens of edge cases that don’t apply to most games.

Yes, they could have constrained the scenarios to work more consistently. But the result would have been more generic scenarios, where every object of power is found on the stair landing–because we know you have one of those!

Now I am just a simple country lawyer (puts thumbs under suspenders). But as a lawyer, I know contracts, and it seems to me that a board game is like a contract. The game publishers pay with their thought and labor, and you pay with not just your hard-earned money, but especially your time. So every game player ought to ask themselves: “What am I paying for, and how much?”

Now, my opponent was out in the field this morning, collecting up a bunch of straw to make his very own straw man that he could pummel in court today. “Betrayal is a great haunted house experience!” he says we all say. Is it? Sometimes. But a lot of it is seeing weeping women in the garden that have nothing to do with anything else that happens. Now, that’s not scary, or a great experience. It’s just a thing that does one die of Mental damage.

No, what BaHotH provides is the unexpected. And every board game can do that, but BaHotH does it in spades. And it does it with story, not just with the variables of game mechanics and player strategies.

Now as I’ve shown, the problems with Betrayal are not failures to capitalize on the core premise of the game. They are inherent properties of the core premise.

I believe my opponent may not like the game’s core premise. Or can’t abide the inevitabilities it contains. He may not think it worth his time and his money to sign that contract with BaHotH.

Now, I am just a simple country lawye— oh. Oh, I’m sorry, did I already say that. Sometimes, my head. I just don’t know where it’s going. You see, I’m not as smart as our Mr. L here. I have simple tastes, and I don’t need every I to be dotted and every T to be crossed, just so, when I play a board game. Let it be sloppy, if it provides me and my simple country friends with some fun! Why, when Margerie is the traitor and can’t figure out her secret rules… where’s the harm in her just asking me to read them and explain them? The secret’s out, sure, but it’s just one of many permutations that make this particular game unique, and no harm done. It’s a messy game, so it can be messier and me and my messy friends don’t mind none.

If the game lasted four hours? Well, that would be another thing. I don’t want to spend four hours only to find out in the last thirty minutes that I could never have won after all! Who does? But an hour, maybe hour and a half? And plenty of interesting things will happen, even if the scenario’s broken or my team gets a raw deal? Whatever! When we can laugh at the end at how Little Timmy tripped over every evil artifact imaginable and should have been dead before the haunt even started? It’s probably worth it. Who won again? I can’t remember!

Betrayal is like a gonzo horror story generator that throws every genre trope into a meat grinder with you and your friends. What comes out is never a filet mignon–that’s what you have Scythe for, or whatever. It’s always sausage, but if you enjoy all those things–especially your friends–then it’ll be some tasty sausage.

And if you like tasty sausage, then you must acquit.

Dagnabbit, now I’m hungry! Your honor, can we adjourn for lunch?

Damn, this forum really needs a like button.

-Tom

I agree that Betrayal’s problems are inherent to its premise. And so I question whether said premise is actually a good idea or a worthwhile gaming experience. Sure, when everything aligns just right, it can be fun…but why not just align those things as part of the design? Because it reduces replayability? Maybe, but what good are additional plays that are generic, boring or broken? You can certainly have session to session variability while still having a much more curated and reliably successful play experience - see in particular Mansions of Madness.

While I am a big fan of Betrayal Legacy, I am in the “enh it’s pretty ok” camp on the original. I always have fun playing it but it’s nowhere near a favorite.

The reason Legacy has been so good so far is that the haunts and narrative have been planned. There has been some branching but it has not been totally random like the base game. This happens because the Omen deck starts out with 0 cards, and the game slowly adds them. The designers know exactly what possible haunts you will get as the legacy game progresses and build that up with cool mechanics and story. The family mechanics of leaving legacy items for descendants and the story actually keeping continuity between sessions helps this greatly. You really get a sense of “we’re going back to the Smith house, where Jed killed grandma!”

Other new mechanics from the base game:

  1. Item & event cards have floor locations so they make more sense where you find them.
  2. There’s a whole outdoor section to the house now. That means there are now 4 locations (upstairs, downstairs, basement, outside) in the house, and each tends to not get very large.
  3. Tiles can get ‘ghosts’ on them, which make them more dangerous to hang out on (avoiding spoilers on this).

Overall the game is a lot more polished (and seemingly playtested) than the base game. I’m curious how it’ll work once we are done with the Legacy stuff and it’s fully randomized.

Honestly, the only thing that really doesn’t make sense is that the house layout continues to be random each game. Maybe people renovate this house a lot.

You can pre-hate it all you want. But you’re not allowed to hate it unless you actually play it.

I meant manual re-mixing.

Fair enough. I’ll revise my invective to specify it’s just pre-hatred. :) Seriously, though, I can understand the appeal. It’s just not the sort of thing I look for when I sit down with friends to play boardgames. Which is probably one of its strengths: that it’s unique.

-Tom

I enjoy BaHotH, for the atmosphere and the effort that went into all the creepy text and writing, and yes it is extremely random.

Games with this much randomness can be great, or awful. If you are only going to play it once or a few times, this is a terrible design for a game. But if you are going to play it dozens of times, then a few clunkers mixed in don’t ruin it.

It’s a bit like playing a one-off game of Magic the Gathering: your random deck arrangement may sometimes dictate you will have a terrible time, but if you are going to play that deck dozens of times, then those rare real stinkers don’t dominate the overall play experience.

Well, I’ve never been so entertained being put in my place, so thanks for that.

And de gustibus, and all that. So we’ll just have to disagree. But I’ll never be convinced that a game where you play most of the game not knowing the goals is a good game. It might be a fun activity, like that thing where you take turns making up a story, or MST3K-ing a movie, or playing music together; but it fails at being a game

Yeah, ok, I won’t disagree with that. But you know what else is a gonzo horror story generator? John Carpenter. And you’ll probably have a better percentage with him.

I don’t disagree that it might be acceptable to have random outcomes compromise the experience occasionally in a game one will play dozens of times but a) the ratio of stinker to great in Betrayal is much much more skewed to stinker than you are making out (not least because the pre-haunt often comprises a substantial portion of the play experience and just isn’t very interesting) and b) I have found that is exactly the problem with Magic - the random shuffling of the deck plus the resource system make terrible experiences dominate play. Almost every other CCG I have ever played has a better solution to the problem.

Oh! In all of that, I missed addressing this point. I actually think the goals are kind of interesting in the pre-haunt game. At least, different from other games. In general, you’re trying to build yourself up for whatever side of the good/evil line you end up on. Find useful objects, don’t lose too much in your stats, etc. But you’re also looking at your friends and seeing them build up and wondering if they’re going to be The One. I don’t know that you have much ability to KEEP them from getting too powerful, but you’re at least cognizant of it, and hoping they’ll be on your side. (Or hoping they’ll be the traitor, if they’re striking out.) Since most of you will end up on the survivor side, you are still incentivized to generally play cooperatively. Anyway, for me, there definitely aren’t ZERO goals. You’re just working towards what you are aware is a huge unknown.

Haha, yes, that is definitely true. Film has the benefit of consistency.

Naw, Scythe is just a different kind of sausage.

Nightgaunt’s post is fantastic, but I disagree that Betrayal’s (previously) unparalleled use of the unexpected is viable in today’s market. Pandemic Legacy Season 1 and 2 as well as Aeon’s End Legacy do fantastic jobs delivering unexpected mid-game shifts with story related content while consistently being great games. Those are the only Legacy games I’ve played, but I’d city lawyer you (is that a thing?) with the argument that good legacy design obsoletes any reason to play Betrayal. Unless, I guess, you want to do a one-off. Dang, why hasn’t someone figured that out yet?

Well, I did not really enjoy my experience with Pandemic Legacy (and I love the basic game). I do expect that Betrayal Legacy will work for me, but a scripted (or branching, if that’s what it is) set of haunts is just fundamentally a totally different thing from regular Betrayal. And, yeah, the one-off thing is totally an appeal (while legacy campaigns have their own different appeal).

It’s still semi random, but heavily guided random. They know what branches you might end up and when. When you finish the legacy portion (13 sessions) it turns into full random like the original. The book even has a folded up section with the haunt/omen-cross reference chart to use at that point.

Someone else (@tomchick or @Nightgaunt) should really play this thing so we can talk spoilers!

I’m working on getting my group together! It’s hard!

Hey, how’d you get to play Aeon’s End Legacy? You’re cheating! Everyone I look shows it as a pre-order.

I like the basic gameplay of Aeon’s End, but it really needs some sort of structure or context other than, “Hey, just pick some of these spells and play.” I figure a Legacy version would provide that structure and context.

I’ve got my copy here! We only need to start playing. Which would have happened by now, but unfortunately, there’s a bit of a stand-off in my gaming group. We have one mission left in Charterstone, which I’m not terribly interested in playing because I read all the cards to see what would happen for my review. Furthermore, it will almost always mean making new people play someone else’s faction, which is a horrible way to introduce someone to Charterstone this late in the game. “Hey, here’s a bunch of stuff someone else put together! Have fun playing it!” And further furthermore, I’m really over basic worker placement games. I need something more with my worker placement these days.

However, one person in our group really wants to finish Charterstone. So when I tried to roll out Betrayal Legacy, she veto’ed it, saying we need to finish our last legacy game before we start a new one. So Betrayal Legacy is kind of being held hostage by that last game of Charterstone.

-Tom