Qt3 Games Podcast: Craig Miller and X-Wing Miniatures

Which is a really good reason not to go back often!

That’s because you’re spending all of your time dusting them. That looks awesome, but holy crap it would take forever to dust!

@CraigM, the big question is which animated series should I watch first?

Unh-unh - the natives get to decide how the place name is pronounced! :)

Pleugim, that is awe inspiring. And more than a little daunting!

-Tom

The short answer is: probably Rebels

The slightly longer answer is: It really depends on what you’re looking for.

The full answer: Rebels and The Clone Wars are very different in scope and tone. Each is worth watching, but where to start depends on what you’re looking for.

Clone Wars takes place during the titular Clone Wars, between Episodes 2 & 3. It is much more an ensemble cast, with Obi Wan, Anakin, and Anakin’s padawan Ahsoka being the primary, but there is about a dozen or more what I would call major characters. During the course of the show you may go multiple episodes where Anakin, or Obi Wan don’t appear at all. The show does, however, use this to tell stories you couldn’t do with a strict main cast focus. Episodes that emphasize the relationships between clones (who have distinct names and personalities) drives many episodes, minor Jedi become major focal points, the universe is expanded and explored.

It also has the best depiction of the actual realities of war in the Star Wars 'verse. It makes the economic and political factors of the movies that, quite frankly, were dull and horribly handled, and makes them interesting and exciting on their own merits. The problems of war, such as starving populations, the political and social pressures, the cost in lives and money, all these are depicted well. It also brings out the role of the Jedi as generals, and haves it make sense. Plus the tactics of battle are done as well, or better, as many actual war movies. There is a lot of care and attention to how engagements occur, and you get the sense of how the different army doctrines operate.

Finally it does much to really show Anakin as a fully fleshed out character. His relationship with Padme is given a real sense of care, his descent into the dark side sold. You see Anakin as the great general and war hero. You see him as this exemplar of the jedi knights. You also see how his choices and relationships set the stage for his fall, even while he, and those around him, remain oblivious to the seeds of his destruction. It also gives Obi Wan a love interest, which provides wonderful contrast to Anakin. It shows the path not taken, and the costs and pain involved in that.

Basically it takes every potential, every promise, every thread and relationship that the prequels set up, and then squandered, and it fulfils that potential. It does this while paying homage to the old serials that inspired Star Wars in the first place, right down to the narrator. It is Star Wars as the best form of serial it could be.

Now Rebels

Rebels is much more focused on a smaller narrative. It is a more intimate story, one that eschews the grand sweeps of galactic war for a much more personal story of a small band of outlaws. At the show open they are not part of the Rebellion, in fact the Rebellion does not formally exist. The crew of the Ghost each have their own stories, each their own personalities, and each their reasons for being there. Think Firefly.

As such the smaller focus enables much greater emotional payloads. This small scale enables the relationships to be explored in greater detail, and done so with an often deft and subtle hand. It may seem weird to describe a cartoon in the Star Wars universe as ‘subtle’, but often the histories of relationships between the crew are exactly that.

So by the time the Rebellion gets going, and by the time the crew joins, the groundwork has been laid. The evolution of the characters really comes through and visibly impacts the narrative. Choices and actions grow organically from who these people are. That way when old friends from The Clone Wars come up, they are also brought through to new and interesting dimensions.

Plus the story does a great job of expanding on the force mythos, and does so in the same ways that KotOR 2 does, by blurring the lines between light and dark. Rebels also has higher highs than the Clone Wars. When I said that the ending of season 2 is as good or better than Star Wars has ever been, I stand by that. Lets just say that the appearance of several sith lords from the movies has a HUGE emotional impact. It is worth watching the series to see this alone.

Rebels has higher highs, and does not have the type of occasional clunker that Clone Wars has. It is a more consistent series, and generally maintains a higher level of quality.

Now there is one reason to watch Clone Wars first, or at least concurrently. There are several characters that make important appearances in Rebels. Some of the impact of certain reveals, particularly in season 2, are diminished without at least some familiarity with Clone Wars. By no means do I think it required to watch the entire show, I watched season 1 of Clone Wars before starting Rebels, but at least a little. And whatever you do, do not start season 2 until you’ve watched some Clone Wars.

I spotted a Lego Tie Fighter and I think that must be from Episode VII but what is the craft next to it?

Piggy backing off that a bit: I am about 90% sure that both X-Wing and Armada share a designer: Alex Davies is one of the designers of Armada, and is the lead designer of X-Wing. They are both very well designed, and the concepts of the game do inform one another.

I do actually think that the scale of Armada looks much more interesting than the scale of X-Wing, but X-Wing came out first and I’ve been playing it since roughly month 6. I only have the mental and time bandwidth to get into one of these games, and so I’m sticking with X-Wing.

That actually seems to be the case for a lot of people, which creates a sort of network effect: it’s much easier to find people to play with.

(I’m starting to listen to the podcast right now, so maybe you’ve already covered this)

The other interesting thing about X-Wing, that Armada simply cannot do, is represent a 1:1 version of the battlefield. All* X-Wing ships are on the same 1:270. Some of these ships (coughs the HWK-290) seem off in scale, but all the ships are exactly to the dimensions that LucasFilm says they should be.

The scale of the ships is only a symptom of a cool part of the game, though. The game’s… I dunno, mental space? Conceptual area? is “battle that makes sense for a single X-Wing to meaningfully participate in.” So in Armada when you plunk Luke Skywalker down on a table, he’s Luke Skywalker leading a group of Rebel Fighters. That’s cool! But in X-Wing, when you put down Luke, he’s Luke Skywalker flying his own X-Wing fighter with whatever equipment you’ve put on his fighter. And that’s true for each individual ship on the board.

The Armada capital ships look amazing, and I love the fact that when I watch people play, I can see them moving actual Star Destroyers around the board. I don’t want to sound in any way like I’m dissing that game. But there’s something equally cool about X-Wing’s smaller scale, and intimate dogfights.

*There are currently 3 exceptions, all of which are part of the “Epic” part of the game. The Imperial Raider, the CR-90 “Rebel Blockade Runner”, and the GR-75 “Rebel Medium Freighter”. They exist on a different “relative” scale, where they are shrunk down enough to fit on the board, but are still big enough to feel more important than the rest of the ships floating around.

That’s the Ghost. It’s an amazingly cool ship from the Rebels show.

The other thing to note is that Clone Wars is on Netflix for free right now, and you’d have to pay for any of the Rebels seasons. So if money is an issue, start with Clone Wars. But do keep in mind that it takes a while to really heat up.

Unless you do what I did, get them from the library. Granted the Chicago suburbs have this wonderful network with something like 80 libraries I can get stuff from, so it is easy to find most things.

Except Game of Thrones, apparently.

Really fun podcast. Too bad it felt like it ended in the middle of things. ;)

Darn it @CraigM, now I’m going to wind up getting both of them. I loved that post by the way.

My main problem with collectible games like this is that they’re based on the premise that players will each buy their own copies of the game. Because so much of the game is building your own combination of ships and pilots and weapons, in the same way you might build a Magic or Netrunner deck, you miss out on a significant part of the game’s design when you’re just playing someone else’s set.

And since a) none of the friends I regularly play boardgames with are interested in collectibles, and b) I have no desire to play games with strangers, that pretty much excludes me from X-Wing and Armada. Which on one hand is unfortunate, but on the other hand makes me about $250 less poor.

-Tom

I don’t understand the purpose of expansions. Corsets are supposed to be tightened over time.

Yep, that’s the Ghost. I didn’t realize it when I purchased it but it didn’t come with the Phantom (the ship that docks in the back), so it has a big gap back there. I was going to pick it up but it had already gone out of print and Lego prices get crazy after that happens.

I second the praise for Rebels. It starts a little slow but it’s become quite a good show with plenty of interesting callbacks and cameos.

X-Wing has a very strong Vassal following that can get around some of those barriers for people who are OK with playing it like that. You essentially have the full collection that way and can play with friends from anywhere.

I’ve never really pursued it since such a big appeal of the game to me is the moving and handling of the physical ships and just the great visual presence on the table (hence my ridiculous collection of unplayed pieces). However for those who are most attracted to the pure mechanics it seems like a viable option.

My hope for the game is that FFG continues down the app-enhanced style of design they’ve pursued with Mansions of Madness and Descent and develop some kind of Coop/Solo variation for X-Wing and Armada. I see them trying that with Imperial Assault first.

There is also a very nice constructed fan made coop campaign for X-Wing called Heroes of the Artari Cluster (I think that’s the name at least.) That can be printed out on card-stock and nice paper at Kinko’s. It seems to be highly praised and features a progression and upgrade system.

Ahem ;)

There is the link, by the way, and it is indeed high quality.

As for your concerns Tom

Well, this is a totally fair critique. One I’ve got no counter for. A big part of the draw, for me, is engaging with the mechanics in list building. I have dozens of list ideas printed out, of which I’ve probably flown less than half. I get great enjoyment from contemplating builds, from trying to create lists that utilize an underappreciated card or ship. Sometimes I like to create lists that are totally funky, and not actually tournament competitive, just because it does some stupid thing that seems fun. Like Luke Skywalker with BB-8, Engine Upgrade, and Push the Limit. Reveal green maneuver, barrel roll and then boost before maneuver, get stress, clear stress with the green maneuver, then focus or target lock. Do this every turn.

A 3 action X-wing, with double repositioning, late turn order, and never stressed. It is completely silly and fun!

So I spend more time thinking about combos like that than I do play the game. And it is a huge part of the appeal! There is this vast depth, this fractal possibility space, that I enjoy engaging with. Trying to figure the best way to cram everything in at 100 points or less is a thrill.

Which doesn’t mean the game on the table isn’t fun even if you aren’t building lists! It is, however, only a part of the game. And, as you note, if you don’t have friends willing to build lists, it does make it a bit harder. I have played on several occasions (such as with my siblings) where I provide the lists and ships for both sides. I do deliberately structure it as such to try and make both easier to use. The upside is more list building for me. The downside is that I am effectively dictating how my opponent is going to play. I try and give list options, but they are only interacting with a limited amount of the game scope.

But I go to a regular group at the game store. They were strangers, at first, but the X-wing community tends toward very friendly and helpful. So they did not remain so for long. At this point they are not a group of strangers, but people I’ve had the opportunity to talk to a bit, to get to know a little, and play against multiple times. This worked for me, and I’d bet there are several places near you that offer the same.

But I can respect that this may not work for everyone, and if that prospect doesn’t work for you, there isn’t much I can do to argue that X-wing is a great fit.

Doh! Reading fail, sorry!