Yeah, fanboy is exactly right. When Tom said John was cruel to him, I don’t think that’s quite fair. He was understandably a little annoyed with the fanboy reaction; uncomfortable and put off by it.
Yes, The Bowery King is being arbitrarily punished. John Wick broke the rules in a flagrant way. He broke them to kill a member of the high table. (Never mind that that member got the position by using John to kill his sister.) But the Bowery King helped John before he broke the rules.
The High Table is making an exaple of John, and everyone assocated with him, whether they deserve it or not.
And let’s not forget a large part of the reason John put a bullet in Santino’s head is that John did what Santino forced him to do, and Santino took out a bounty on him for it.
The entire text here is the rules are here for me, not for thee.
Also, they’re overreacting to an infraction and inciting the very rebellion they sought to quench.
Which isn’t to say that John Wick 3 is perfect in any way on a script level - John really should have balked at being forced to kill Winston, which would’ve given Winston’s betrayal that extra oomph, and kept the whole thing from feeling like wheel spinning.
I just reject your disgusting obsequiousness to power, Maggie.
I agree, to a certain extent. It’s just odd to punish a fanboy of John Wick when the biggest fanboys of John Wick are the director and scriptwriter. And it’s not like he reacted so negatively to similar adoration by the two Malaysian dudes… or to, like, Halle Berry spitting out all his water when he’s about to wander into the desert.
Come to think of it, it’s really interesting to watch a movie where Keanu Reeves is reaching the limit of his ability to stage a fight as well as the limit of his ability to sell a line. I have no plans to see the already-greenlit fourth installment, but I do wonder how they’re going to manage a series that keeps escalating its action as its star enters old age…
The whole time during the motorcycle battle near the end, I was thinking, “Hey, dummies, just stick your katana blades into the front wheel of John Wick’s motorcycle if you want to stop him!” It’s only near the end of the battle that someone finally does that. And that someone is…John Wick, the only character who gets to magically be not stupid when the script calls for it.
But, really, it’s part and parcel of these kinds of movies, where the hero always wins because he’s the hero. That’s just how it works and you’re not supposed to ask questions. For instance, do you want me to ruin all fight scenes for you forever? Do you want me to show you something you will never be able to unsee? If so, click the text below:
Next time you watch a fight scene, follow the arms and hands of someone who’s losing a fight. The stunt man invariably has to stop punching to be the recipient of whatever badass move is applied to him. He literally has to get his arms out of the way, as if he forgot how to use them. So he just stops using his arms and holds them down at his side. In a real fight, no one is going to relinquish the use of his arms. He’ll be swinging, clawing, pushing, the whole time. But action heroes only get to do heroic actions when the choreography calls for their stuntmen partners to put down their arms and take their choreographed licks. Once you look for it, it’s conspicuous in pretty much every fight scene ever.
But that’s just how it works. Like enemies in a kung fu movie approaching one at a time. These are the rules.
-Tom
As near as I can tell, everyone associated with John Wick helped him break the rules. Everyone. Which makes sense, because these are stories about a guy breaking the rules. The only relevance for any character is how they’re helping him break the rules.
Yet you seem to only believe in rules and consequences – let’s say that over and over and then forget what it means – when you’ve decided they’re fair. Which is fine if that’s the way you want to do it. The dumb scripts certainly hope that’s the way you do it! But you’re having to invent reasons you think it’s fair without any internal support beyond the movie taking place from the perspective of the guy who broke the rules. The problem with the worldbuilding in John Wick is that it suggests there’s a world outside John Wick where people have to honor their obligations, where working for the High Table means following the rules they’ve set, and where breaking rules brings down consequences. But let’s not think about that because now John Wick is gonna shoot some fools in the face! Time for you to cheer!
Dude, I’m lawful neutral. Anyone who paints Trump as a lawful alignment is grossly misreading both Trump and the whole D&D alignment system. Nerds everywhere would be ashamed of you!
I don’t think the script and the filmmakers understand Dacoscos’ appeal as an actor. They seem to think they’ve cast some sniveling villain who deserves some sort of comeuppance. But what they’ve accidentally done is given us a competent, likeable, and charming character who’s inadvertently more relatable than anyone else in the movie.
-Tom
Tom = Lawful Neutral
Dingus = Lawful Good
KW = Chaotic Evil
Duh.
Yeah, I see that “trick” sometimes, when I watch action movies, and it immediately pulls me out of the moment. We fare better early in John Wick: Chapter 3 when Keanu Reeves takes hits sometimes, so both parties are doing it, but as more powerful forces are arrayed against him, he has less and less room to be on the losing side of a fight, culminating in the bulletproof soldier fight, which I am apparently alone in disliking!
I liked the idea, but wasn’t terribly invested in what actually happened. I was bored of watching stuntmen standing by to get punchshot by Keanu Reeves at that point. It’s like when you crank up the difficulty in a shooter and suddenly the enemies have twice as many hit points, but nothing else changes.
-Tom
The need to get close and shoot into the visor was a similar logistical challenge to safely reloading. I thought it changed the flow of the gun battle enough to be interesting viewing.
Um, you NERDS realize John Wick is a superhero, right? Silly-ass rules like falling 5 stories after being shot several times being fatal DON’T WORK. And it stays internally consistent thru the movies. GEEZ.
I will accept that he is superhuman but I will not accept that he is a superhero. Perhaps this is a distinction without a difference, but it is worth arguing about!
-xtien
Yikes, you might be right. He’s basically a more lithe Punisher, isn’t he?
-Tom
I’ve always loved the word “lithe”
I think this might be a more correct take:
https://twitter.com/mattdoveywriter/status/1133866756756463620
This is getting tautological - “Everyone who invokes the ire of the high table has broken the rules otherwise they would not have invoked the ire of the high table.” Q.E.D. Power is always correct.
If you actually look at the rules that have been laid out, the rule John breaks is killing on Continental grounds. Which means that if The Bowery King’s aid had lead to John killing Santino in the museum, he’d been in the clear, but since John didn’t manage to do it, and John chose to take it into continental grounds, The Bowery king is accountable for that choice.
That is nonsense, the kind of arbitrariness that is the fuel for tyranny, and if you actually were lawful neutral, you’d balk at it.
Yes, I kind of think to accept Tom’s interpretation you would have to believe that Wick had already broken High Table rules by killing Santino’s sister, and no aspect of JW2 indicated that was the case; the “organization” seemed to be fine with John hunting Santino as long as the actual kill wasn’t on Continental grounds.
I absolutely agree that the world building in 3, flimsy as it is, is supposed to demonstrate that the High Table is corrupt and the rules are there only for the benefit of the people in charge. Wick has a hard time believing this, so he thinks an appeal to the ultimate authority will resolve his problems; but the only rule that apparently really counts is that might makes right. This is hammered home by Winston getting back in the good graces of the High Table by a demonstration of strength.
Each sequel in the series does so much retconning, though, that it might be best to think of each as being set in a world of its own.
The rule John breaks is not honoring a marker. He reneges on an IOU and you’re conveniently ignoring that to invent stuff about corruption and arbitrary power. There’s no internal support for your decision that the High Table is a tyrannical despot.
But, really, your main problem is treating these silly movies as if they had any sort of consistent rationale for why John Wick is the good guy. You’re like a Star Wars nerd trying to justify how the Kessel Run is something that can be done in 8 parsecs.
I would accept it might think it’s doing that, but it’s failing because it’s simply doesn’t care. If you want to make the case it’s some sort of villainous arbitrary power, you guys have to fill in a lot of gaps with assumptions.
-Tom, #StillTeamHighTable
Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but doesn’t John honor the marker in JW2? Isn’t that what kicks off the whole plot?
Denied the marker at first, then accepts it.
Denied:
Accepted:
Edit: “Accept’s”, ugh.
Completed:
Haha, arguing about the lore of John Wick. Be nice if its writers gave this much of a shit, huh.
The Table’s never broken its word to John. Ironically, he’s the Agent Smith of the John Wick universe: he’s a virus spreading throughout the Table. Which is more motivation than I need from my action heroes.
You guys are talking about just the rules; we don’t know jack shit about the personalities or politics involved.
In the Richard Stark novels, Parker takes on the whole Outfit…but eventually just finds a guy up the chain and negotiates with the guy’s rivals into giving him amnesty if he kills him for them. Easy out.
An Arab ring collector sitting in a tent who isn’t by definition corrupt. A murder syndicate’s not necessarily corrupt just because of the service they provide. Michael Corleone wasn’t corrupt, he just married wrong.
I trust you are joking.
-xtien