3181

Black Friday itself is one thing, but in the last 10 years what has happened is that the whole thing has gotten expanded to the point where it impacts a lot more then just that day. Ten years ago most retailers were not open on Thanksgiving Day itself - they simply opened early on Friday with a big sale. Now at least half of the major retailers are open on Thanksgiving Day regular hours and many stay open all night. The Walmart I work part-time at has gone from closed on Thanksgiving to limited hours on Thanksgiving to open all day and all night in the last three years alone.

So while some people (less then half the workers in the US at this point would be my guess) get a long holiday weekend, the rest get no holiday at all. Just so you can buy crap at midnight. If everyone opened at 5am, that same crap would still be available at the same price, but at least a lot of people would have gotten an actual holiday.

3182

Best Buy opened at midnight on Friday (Thursday night). I know a guy who camped out for it. It’s crazy.

3183

I worked in retail for ten years, from my teens to my mid twenties. The last few years were spent in low level and middle management; just enough responsibility to hire, fire and enforce (really stupid fucking) rules passed down from higher up, but not high enough to create company policy.

All this anger, denial and bitterness you guys are barfing up? Yea, I used to do, and still do the same thing when it comes to describing my feelings about working retail. I never really liked it, but it paid the bills and at the time I didn’t really know how to do anything else.

I just don’t understand the concept of putting all the blame on the customers, because that’s the specific issue I addressed.

Sorry to make you all look so stupid, and feel so powerless.

3184

Man I’m starting to regret taking you off ignore. The 1/100 posts of yours that are clever are not worth putting up with the other 99% of them that reveal what a worthless human being you are.

EDITing to add in the troll part of that last post in case you develop some troll’s remorse and edit to make my post look out of context:

3185

Oh and as someone that worked food service and retail through high school I’ll just add in my own “fuck you” to you too. Suck a bag of dicks for your condescending attitude towards minimum wage workers.

3186

Jesus man, this isn’t facebook. I don’t need a status update every single time you feel it’s important to remind me you’ve had me on ignore. Get a twitter account or something.

EDITing to add in the troll part of that last post in case you develop some troll’s remorse and edit to make my post look out of context:
Projecting much?

Oh and as someone that worked food service and retail through high school I’ll just add in my own “fuck you” to you too. Suck a bag of dicks for your condescending attitude towards minimum wage workers.
Blah blah blah.

I felt the same pain and wear the same scars. If they end up stuck in retail for almost ten years like I did during and after high school they’ll probably just turn out just like me. Take it as a warning children. It isn’t condescension, it’s bad memories. I’ve never, ever made it a secret that I am one-step removed from doing it all over again, and still on the path of clawing my way out of the pit of despair known as low wage dead end jobs. I’m not condescending, I’m right there with them, I just have a different opinion about where to lay all the blame.

3187

We understand and appreciate your long hours as a mouth breathing retail drone, but that’s not our problem with you. It’s your douchebaggy “It’s the workers fault!” claim as to why Black Friday is bad.

Anyone who believes this is obviously fucking delusional and has never had a clear thought in their head (Wait a minute, this is all starting to make sense, we are talking about Kerzain).

And at no point can you blame someone who is supporting themselves who gets stuck working shitty hours if it’s the only job that they can either A) find or B) have due to other circumstances (Such as mine; I can’t work as a game developer because I’m in college so I don’t have to work retail for the rest of my life).

You can take your condescending “I don’t have to argue with these guys!” attitude and shove it up your ass. You’ve yet to make a compelling argument outside of “It’s the workers fault because I was a worker once and I should have quit my job!”

So, when you grow up and start having compassion about other people, or at least can understand the proper way people should think, then maybe we can continue his discussion. But saying “Blah blah blah” isn’t an effective retort; it does nothing but make you look like the child that you truly are.

Bitch.

3188

Like I said, they are only partly at fault. They’re only part of the equation.

Anyone who believes this is obviously fucking delusional and has never had a clear thought in their head (Wait a minute, this is all starting to make sense, we are talking about Kerzain).
You’re being irrational.

And at no point can you blame someone who is supporting themselves who gets stuck working shitty hours if it’s the only job that they can either A) find or B) have due to other circumstances (Such as mine; I can’t work as a game developer because I’m in college so I don’t have to work retail for the rest of my life).
I don’t blame them for taking these jobs, but the companies that offer these jobs have these expectations only because people keep taking them. As long as there’s some one willing to do more for less workplace conditions will continue to deteriorate. I don’t like it, and this attitude has cost me jobs and certain opportunities at times when it really fucking hurt, but I never once implied folks in this situation could simply refuse to work without repercussions.

All choices have consequences, good or bad, working on holidays is only one of them.

You can take your condescending “I don’t have to argue with these guys!” attitude and shove it up your ass. You’ve yet to make a compelling argument outside of “It’s the workers fault because I was a worker once and I should have quit my job!”
I figured explaining the obvious would in itself have been a bit condescending.

So, when you grow up and start having compassion about other people, or at least can understand the proper way people should think, then maybe we can continue his discussion.
It’s the ‘proper way people should think’ thing that trips me up.

But saying “Blah blah blah” isn’t an effective retort;
It isn’t an effective retort to being told to suck a bag of dicks? Pray tell, what would have been an effective and more appropriate retort? Would that retort really have been worth the time and effort to write up? Did you even read what I was retorting to? It was schoolyard nonsense and drama queenism. Yeeshus Christ.

it does nothing but make you look like the child that you truly are.

Bitch.
Says the guy who has a better arsenal of retorts to ‘bag of dicks’ jokes.

3189

No, it isn’t.

You’re being irrational.

Says the guy who’s blaming people for trying to feed their families.

I don’t blame them for taking these jobs,

But you do when you say it’s their fault for working when they are expected to.

but the companies that offer these jobs have these expectations only because people keep taking them.

No. You can blame the first round of people who worked these hours instead of taking a stand against them, maybe, but even then your platform is tenuous at best.

As long as there’s some one willing to do more for less workplace conditions will continue to deteriorate.

Working when you’re expected to is lowering workplace conditions?

I don’t like it, and this attitude has cost me jobs and certain opportunities at times when it really fucking hurt, but I never once implied folks in this situation could simply refuse to work without repercussions.

As it should. “I don’t want to work the hard hours!” isn’t a reasonable excuse, and anyone who makes that excuse does deserve to be fired because you aren’t earning your paycheck.

All choices have consequences, good or bad, working on holidays is only one of them.

Thank you, sensei.

I figured explaining the obvious would in itself have been a bit condescending.

Suuuuuure. I’m positive it has nothing to do with the fact that you have nothing to back up your claims.

It’s the ‘proper way people should think’ thing that trips me up.

“Work when you’re expected to work” isn’t a hard rationale to get behind.

It isn’t an effective retort to being told to suck a bag of dicks? Pray tell, what would have been an effective and more appropriate retort? Would that retort really have been worth the time and effort to write up? Did you even read what I was retorting to? It was schoolyard nonsense and drama queenism. Yeeshus Christ.

Perhaps responding in a way that solidified or at least strengthened your argument, instead of “blah blah blah”. You still haven’t done this, by the way. And just because you hand wave away what anyone else says and call it “Schoolyard nonsense and drama queenism” doesn’t make it true. You seem to be having a hard time acknowledging this basic principle!

Says the guy who has a better arsenal of retorts to ‘bag of dicks’ jokes.

I don’t think Staff was joking when he told you to suck a bag of dicks. That is constructive criticism! You should try it, it might increase your quality of living.

3190

I like pie.

3191

Demon if you could stop quoting kerzain that would be just tremendous, thanks.

3192

I did, in the original post.

Working when you’re expected to is lowering workplace conditions?
Well, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if somebody didn’t complain about the hours.

As it should. “I don’t want to work the hard hours!” isn’t a reasonable excuse, and anyone who makes that excuse does deserve to be fired because you aren’t earning your paycheck.
For the record, I never let a situation get to a point where I would be fired for something like this (though I was once fired for refusing to commit what i felt to be fraud, only to learn later the business owner was arrested, and his partner deported to Canada because of the very issues I had with their new business plans), but I did turn down a couple opportunities because I couldn’t come to an agreement with hiring/promotional managers, and I have left jobs because certain expectations changed in such a way that I found myself unwilling to adapt to the changes (which were for the worse).

On the flip side, when I’ve been able to come to an agreement with my manager on certain job issues or expectations that I’ve found intolerable, things would end up working out for the better for me.

Perhaps responding in a way that solidified or at least strengthened your argument, instead of “blah blah blah”. You still haven’t done this, by the way. And just because you hand wave away what anyone else says and call it “Schoolyard nonsense and drama queenism” doesn’t make it true. You seem to be having a hard time acknowledging this basic principle!

I don’t think Staff was joking when he told you to suck a bag of dicks. That is constructive criticism! You should try it, it might increase your quality of living.
This isn’t a black and white issue where all retail workers are nothing more than victims of an uncaring forced labor system. I have not, nor will I pretend that ‘bucking the system’ is the best move for all people in all situations, but when assigning blame to problems like these you aren’t doing anybody any favors by ignoring all the potential factors that play into the issue.

I know you’re in college, and one day you probably won’t have to worry about the bullshit that comes coupled with retail sales jobs. It’s likely that one day you’re going to be a college educated professional, possibly in a position that where your decisions will have an impact on employees under your command. If you ever do end up in a position like that, and you go in thinking you’re the King Shit Reigning Overlord of the unwashed masses (like many retailers and other minimum wage employers think of themselves), and you think of yourself as a boss who never has to take shit, or discuss concerns and issues with any subordinate (especially working conditions that might affect not only their jobs but their their private and familial lives), you will be doing yourself, and them, a huge disservice by simply ignoring them or firing them for having the audacity of speaking up.

Yes, companies like that exist, and my stance is that they only persist because people have learned to let them. But the prevalence of such expectations by companies is much less today than it was one hundred years ago, because many people (employees) just stopped taking their shit, when it was shit they felt they were being dealt. That doesn’t mean corporations and bosses won’t snatch up every inch you’re willing to give up on the field, it just means that employees are much more empowered today than they used to be, and in order to grow even more powerful they need to stand up for themselves if they feel an issue is important enough to warrant a discussion, or a change…

What I’m saying here is that if you ever find yourself in a position where your decisions can make significant changes to a system that causes many of your workers stress, frustration and anger – it would do all of you good if you were able to work with them to make things work, when possible, instead of ramming rules and expectations down their throats, with the threat (and their fear of) of termination being their only motivation to even show up for the day. Right now it just seems like you have this perception of the world in your head about what bosses are allowed to get away with, I hope you realize it doesn’t need to be like that.

You want to go on pretending that all retail workers are somehow exempt from having a say, fine, go ahead. There are some sad cases out there of people doing something they hate because it is a means to an end, I’m not unfamiliar with that subject, but it doesn’t help anybody to just ignore the finer details of a problem, throw your hands up and say, “Well, dem’s da breaks”.

3193

Want pie now.

3194

Damnit, we were getting along so well too. I think we even had a single interaction in the last couple weeks where you didn’t go out of your way to piss all over me. I fondly remember those two posts, I thought they’d be the start of something wonderful.

If you ever take me off ignore, send me a PM and we’ll work on our relationship. In the mean time I guess I’ll keep chipping away at Matt Keil and jerri blank, in the hopes that one day my respect for them will be reciprocated.

3195

PIE!

3196

Errant ‘can’ in there, and I try not to edit unless it’s a coding mistake. Whatever, you understood the point.

Well, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if somebody didn’t complain about the hours.

Everyone complains about work.

For the record, I never let a situation get to a point where I would be fired for something like this (though I was once fired for refusing to commit what i felt to be fraud, only to learn later the business owner was arrested, and his partner deported to Canada because of the very issues I had with their new business plans), but I did turn down a couple opportunities because I couldn’t come to an agreement with hiring/promotional managers, and I have left jobs because certain expectations changed in such a way that I found myself unwilling to adapt to the changes (which were for the worse).

On the flip side, when I’ve been able to come to an agreement with my manager on certain job issues or expectations that I’ve found intolerable, things would end up working out for the better for me.

So as long as it benefits you, then it’s a-okay. Gotcha.

This isn’t a black and white issue where all retail workers are nothing more than victims of an uncaring forced labor system.

Nor have I claimed this.

I have not, nor will I pretend that ‘bucking the system’ is the best move for all people in all situations, but when assigning blame to problems like these you aren’t doing anybody any favors by ignoring all the potential factors that play into the issue.

Well, you kinda did say that it was the workers fault for not standing up to their boss, and that they should stand up to their bosses so that Black Friday will disappear. So yes, you did advocate just that, but okay, let’s back-peddle a little more.

I know you’re in college, and one day you probably won’t have to worry about the bullshit that comes coupled with retail sales jobs. It’s likely that one day you’re going to be a college educated professional, possibly in a position that where your decisions will have an impact on employees under your command. If you ever do end up in a position like that, and you go in thinking you’re the King Shit Reigning Overlord of the unwashed masses (like many retailers and other minimum wage employers think of themselves), and you think of yourself as a boss who never has to take shit, or discuss concerns and issues with any subordinate (especially working conditions that might affect not only their jobs but their their private and familial lives), you will be doing yourself, and them, a huge disservice by simply ignoring them or firing them for having the audacity of speaking up.

My boss isn’t a King Shit Reigning Overlord of the unwashed masses, but he understands that Black Friday is the biggest sales day during the year, and his company expects him to make money that day. It has, literally, nothing to do with the little people that you’re saying are at least partially to blame; if they said they didn’t want to work, they’d be fired, just like if he said to his bosses that he didn’t want to open the store crazy hours that day, he’d be fired.

Do you get it? It’s no one’s fault beyond the consumers who go crazy at this time (And even that is slowly abating as sales are extended throughout weekends and into the next week (Guess who decides sales? The King Shit Reigning Overlords.)).

Yes, companies like that exist, and my stance is that they only persist because people have learned to let them. But the prevalence of such expectations by companies is much less today than it was one hundred years ago, because many people (employees) just stopped taking their shit, when it was shit they felt they were being dealt. That doesn’t mean corporations and bosses won’t snatch up every inch you’re willing to give up on the field, it just means that employees are much more empowered today than they used to be, and in order to grow even more powerful they need to stand up for themselves if they feel an issue is important enough to warrant a discussion, or a change…

A few extra hours is not enough of a reason to stage a strike. Sorry, your Civil Rights era sit-ins that you want the working man to participate in aren’t going to happen over Black Friday, and that’s no fault of the minimum wage workers you’re (even partially) blaming it on.

What I’m saying here is that if you ever find yourself in a position where your decisions can make significant changes to a system that causes many of your workers stress, frustration and anger – it would do all of you good if you were able to work with them to make things work, when possible, instead of ramming rules and expectations down their throats, with the threat (and their fear of) of termination being their only motivation to even show up for the day. Right now it just seems like you have this perception of the world in your head about what bosses are allowed to get away with, I hope you realize it doesn’t need to be like that.

Or my business goes under because we couldn’t meet our competition on the largest shopping day in the year (It’s only one day, maybe two if you got shafted on working on Thanksgiving (Which definitely is a problem, unless it’s at like 10 pm, like Toys R Us is, in which you got paid MORE for being there).

What you’re advocating is a system where everyone works basically as much as they want, only when they want. Guess what? The world doesn’t work that way.

[quoet]You want to go on pretending that all retail workers are somehow exempt from having a say, fine, go ahead. There are some sad cases out there of people doing something they hate because it is a means to an end, I’m not unfamiliar with that subject, but it doesn’t help anybody to just ignore the finer details of a problem, throw your hands up and say, “Well, dem’s da breaks”.[/QUOTE]

I never said they were exempt from having a say. One of my co-workers got the day off. Want to know how they got the day off? “Hey boss, I really can’t work that day. Any way I can take on some other day instead?” “Yeah, sure man.”

That is the way it needs to be handled. Not “No one should have to work when they don’t want to!”

Seriously. I understand what you’re trying to say; Workers should work hours that they feel are acceptable. But guess what? Businesses run on the concept of making money. Sometimes that means working some ridiculous hours (Video Game Developers work way more than any retail worker does, but you don’t blame them for Crunch time, do you?). It’s not their fault. Ever.

3197

Pie is good.

3198

na na na nanana!
naaaaa na na nanana!
Nanana!
Hey Jude!

3199

I have to admit my own needs are pretty high on my list of priorities. Sometimes they conflict with the job, 99.9% of the they don’t.

Well, you kinda did say that it was the workers fault for not standing up to their boss, and that they should stand up to their bosses so that Black Friday will disappear. So yes, you did advocate just that, but okay, let’s back-peddle a little more.
As far as I can tell I haven’t back pedaled at all, not a bit. What I have tried to do, however, is expand on my opinion in order to help get the same point across I’ve been making.

Also, much to the chagrin of those who can’t get better jobs, I do feel that every job has its pluses and minuses, and if you can’t tolerate the minuses then don’t take that job, otherwise don’t fool yourself into thinking there’s absolutely nothing else you could have done about it. I’m pretty sure that anybody considering a retail job knows that job has the potential of dominating their holidays, I don’t expect Joe Blow to overthrow the Wal-Mart corporation, or somehow negotiate their way out of working prime holiday hours either, that would be a ludicrous expectation, but I don’t expect them to turn a blind eye to the root causes of the problems either. Seriously, I haven’t advocated anybody do anything here other than accept that consumers aren’t the only guilty party ruining holidays for retail workers.

My boss isn’t a King Shit Reigning Overlord of the unwashed masses, but he understands that Black Friday is the biggest sales day during the year, and his company expects him to make money that day. It has, literally, nothing to do with the little people that you’re saying are at least partially to blame; if they said they didn’t want to work, they’d be fired, just like if he said to his bosses that he didn’t want to open the store crazy hours that day, he’d be fired.
And back before certain labor laws started being drawn up an enforced if a man ever got hurt on the job he would be fired from his job, and often blackballed from his industry. No severance, no disability checks, no insurance, no help at all. This was what was best for the company after all, and there were always, always other people ready and willing to step in and fill the job opening. But, things got better because working class people decided they weren’t going to take that shit any more.

There will always be somebody ready to take your place, and they’ll often be the ones willing to do more for less. If you’re the one willing to work at a company that only recently started requiring employees to work holidays (as an example) then you’re that new somebody who took the job from the previous folks that never had to put up with those types of expectations or requirements. This doesn’t make you or them bad, it simply demonstrates that at some point, at some very specific point, certain job functions changed because employees allowed them to.

Do you get it? It’s no one’s fault beyond the consumers who go crazy at this time (And even that is slowly abating as sales are extended throughout weekends and into the next week (Guess who decides sales? The King Shit Reigning Overlords.)).
Yes, I get what you are saying. But I only disagree to the point that tracing all the way back to figure out who holds the one singular blame in all this (which you want to place on the consumer’s shoulders) would be like trying to unravel a million mile long snake eating its own tail. We could blame stores for creating bargains to attract shoppers for first initiating this frenzy. Or we could blame employees for manning those stores when the store wanted holidays to become work days, or we could blame consumers for taking advantage of the deals on holidays, when they could be spending time with family, or we could just blame folks without families, who don’t celebrate holidays at all for causing this whole mess in the first place, by shopping and working and planning sales events on holidays.

Consumers alone do not carry all the blame, because they are only one part of the mechanism, they cannot (nor any other piece) exist in a vacuum.

A few extra hours is not enough of a reason to stage a strike. Sorry, your Civil Rights era sit-ins that you want the working man to participate in aren’t going to happen over Black Friday, and that’s no fault of the minimum wage workers you’re (even partially) blaming it on.
That doesn’t remove the responsibility from anybody though.

What you’re advocating is a system where everyone works basically as much as they want, only when they want. Guess what? The world doesn’t work that way.
No, it doesn’t. Who’s fault is that? That’s really the point I started with. You want to place all the blame on consumers, I only want to place part of the blame on consumers. That is really the very core issue here, everything else is extraneous back and forth stuff that gets at, but doesn’t quite address the very specific point I’m trying to make that there’s more than one responsible party here. That’s it, that’s really all I’m saying.

I never said they were exempt from having a say. One of my co-workers got the day off. Want to know how they got the day off? “Hey boss, I really can’t work that day. Any way I can take on some other day instead?” “Yeah, sure man.”

That is the way it needs to be handled. Not “No one should have to work when they don’t want to!”
Well, there are wise ways to go about getting what you need out of a job, and there are obstinate inflexible methods you could do too, I don’t recommend being a dick about things. I’m typically a very loyal employee, and I consider myself to be a diligent and hard worker. I enjoy doing my best and reaping whatever rewards there might be. I worked when I’m expected to work, and go above and beyond when needed. I keep trying to do my best even I might find certain tasks distasteful, but I never lost sight of the fact that by agreeing to increased expectations I was sometimes playing a part, however big, in a company’s attempt to take a little more than they used to.

Seriously. I understand what you’re trying to say; Workers should work hours that they feel are acceptable. But guess what? Businesses run on the concept of making money. Sometimes that means working some ridiculous hours (Video Game Developers work way more than any retail worker does, but you don’t blame them for Crunch time, do you?). It’s not their fault. Ever.
That’s not exactly what I’m saying, but hopefully it’s a little clearer after this post.

3200

I’m so tired.