Not, not at all, Brian.

:\

I mean, when the DCS yots have been waiting years for a promised Nevada map… yeah, you could say that the DCS world is a bit bland and long in the tooth.

The Nevada map isn’t out yet?

Wow, I remember when I bought A10C, it was supposed to be included… and they said it would be released for free to customers within the month.

Since then they have released, what, 10 new aircraft?

The world is indeed a bit bland, and they have probably the worst testing setup of any software house I’ve ever encountered, given how frequently minor patches break entirely unrelated parts of the game. Mission builders frequently complain that missions which used to work end up broken.

That said, it’s the only choice for what it is, and with the new graphics engine, new maps, and a boatload of new planes on the way over the next year or so, I’m getting more excited (as opposed to resigned) about the state of things.

The 21 is why I’m firing it back up again. I’m a huge fan of the way Russians can’t design a a loaf of bread, but every now and then come out of a room going “we accidentally built this thing that’s going to be good for, say, the next 40 years.”

But if I can’t find fun in the Frog, I’m not buying the Fish.

My first run in the Frog went fine. Although I spilled my drink.

After two training missions the game became offended that I hadn’t crashed, so it did. I loaded it back in, but the third tutorial appears to be bugged. It tells me to fly to waypoint two, which I do, then stops giving me instructions.

I had one stupendously hairy moment when it appeared the auto pilot turned itself off and I only noticed when the alarms started. I gave it the gas, yanked the gear up and probably got grass stains on the wingtip. I went round again, but it appears the game wasn’t going to tell me how to land the thing, so I got on with it and did it myself.

I’m going to get superb grip through the corners with that camber setting.

Any landing you can walk away from!

When I learned the Su-25T, we didn’t have any fancy interactive tutorials. That said, it’s nice that they finally got around to it. I learned to start the Huey this evening for the same reason.

So, having progressed past crashing the Huey to the mere drunken wobbling that passes for flying most helicopters, I decided it was time to learn how the guns work.

Well. Who doesn’t like a brace of miniguns? There’s this handy-dandy flexi-sight thing, so you can have the autopilot set you up straight and level, switch to the co-pilot’s seat, and blast away.

The AK fire from the infantry on the ground eventually broke a few windows, so I decided that was a good time to head home. I put it down on a helipad, which surpassed my expectations for the day.

Fish, can you do transport missions with the huey? like going into a hot LZ with the doorguns on rock n roll and barely making it out with a guy hanging from the left skid?

Also does it have a loadout option that puts a loudspeaker on the front of the right skid that plays loud motown to let charlie know you are coming to party and you mean it?

I try to imagine what other game genres would be like if they were taken over by the rivet counters who took over the flight sim world years ago…

The Witcher Series: you have to spend 30 minutes putting on your armor, making sure you get each buckle threaded correctly, if not you have to take it off and start over again. Drinking a potion requires a very precise movement of your arm and fingers to remove the cork and move the vial precisely to your lips, and then you must move your tongue correctly and push buttons to correctly swallow the liquid. WHY CAN’T I SWALLOW??? You look up a help video on YouTube to see how to close off your airway so you swallow the liquid and don’t breathe it in. Drawing your sword requires a very exact button pushing to reproduce the muscles in your arms, shoulders, wrist, hands, fingers, and neck. After you finally master the art of eating and drinking in the wild, and die many times because you haven’t yet figured out which berries are edible and which are poisonous (and it’s trial and error) you start to walk out into the wilderness and have to stop to go to the bathroom. Which requires learning how to remove your clothing again.

When you finally do make it into the wilderness, it is a very bland world, but you know there are a couple of wolves over to the north behind that barn. Because there are always a couple of wolves over behind that barn. And nothing else. The two wolves always sit and wait for you to approach them from the south. The one of them always charges you and the other waits, then attacks 3 minutes later. After you finish with them, you can walk awhile through an empty world, stopping to use the bathroom and figure out how to drink from a stream (there’s a YouTube video on how to do that, this is the most accurate simulation of bodily functions ever!) It’s great! You feel JUST LIKE what an adventurer would feel like in the 1600s (or whenever Witcher is.)

EA Madden taken over by the rivet counters: You spend an hour putting on your shoulder pads in the locker room, getting taped, and your randomly lose your mouthpiece and you get to go through a very accurate simulation of putting a mouthpiece in boiling water then putting it in your mouth and biting down on it to get it to fit. You then wait in real time for it to set up. Oh - you also have to spend hours during the game week (in real time) running drills, lifting weights,running sprints, throwing up, stretching, running the stadium steps, and sitting in chalk talk sessions. The morning of the game you have to set your alarm clock, get up, select what you will wear to the stadium, drive to the stadium, hoping to avoid traffic and getting there in time, then push buttons and move joysticks to remove your clothes, and what was mentioned above to get on your pads. You need to deal with bruises, pains, pulls, etc. during the game. Oh - the game? Yeah, you know exactly what plays the other team will call, the other team is named “The Opponents”, there are no standings, no score for the game, you just play in a VERY realistic simulation of what it feels like to run and hit and get hit.

Transport: yes. (There are a lot of missions where they’ve added Hueys as CSAR aircraft, and there are a couple that center around the Huey as an extraction tool.) Hot LZ, door guns with rock and roll: yes. (The AI gunners aren’t great, but they do put on a good show.) Hanging from the left skid: not to my knowledge. Loudspeaker: I wish!

JeffL, its not _that_bad. Taking off, navigating and landing are what flying is about for quite a large part. Try a sim-lite with those stripped out. Then compare it with old time il-2 on medium difficulty settings. Nursing a wounded bird home after pwning some nazi’s is an in-fucking-dispensable part of the experience. So to compare take off and landing with putting your clothes/armor on and taking a dump is not entirely fair.

I dont think rivet counter satisfying detail is a bad thing in and of itself. Its just sad that there arent games being built around those simulations any more.

I get the sense Jeff wrote an indictment of switchology more than of the navigating/landing. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison. It’s more apt to say that detailed systems models are like games where you have to eat and drink. They’re things you can safely abstract out and be left with a good game, and some people find that an eating system detracts from the overall experience, but some people really like the hunger bar idea.

I do think it’s annoying that DCS in particular seems to care so little about the experience, to the extent of cavalierly breaking some of the (hugely atmospheric and experiential!) missions people have released in the past. Once they get the new graphics engine out, I’d love to see them put some time and effort into a campaign engine, or at least into rectifying all the problems they’ve introduced over the years with the scripting engine.

Yeah, I’m an old fart and once upon a time I use to write for the mags and covered sims for many years. Thus I played just about every sim, good and bad, from the days of Red Baron 1 through Falcon 4 and IL-2 etc. I watched the usenet forums abuse great developers like Andy Hollis and attack the great sim designers, proclaiming knowledge as if they themselves had flown with Galland’s JG 26 in WW2. A loud voice that not only declared that, say, a padlock view was unrealistic, but demanded that designers not even make it an option as having such an option made it clear this was an arcade game, not a sim!

I prefer taking off, navigating, landing (some of my most gripping missions have been nursing a damaged aircraft home and trying to make it to a base and getting safely down on the ground!) So that’s not my issue.

And somehow we then lost the heart of great combat flight sims. Which, IMO, was a living breathing world at war, with a mission and purpose and unpredictability and decisions that mattered. We got some great combat aircraft sims, i.e. sims that really did a nice job of simulating the flight characteristics of certain aircraft. But they began to eliminate a simulation of being a combat pilot in these aircraft, flying in a war. That’s why I said it was if you had a simulation of a Witcher that was focused on the details of his armor and weapons and precisely how deep a certain type of sword can cut into certain types of bone or wood, based on the precise motions of the player, and then plopping the Witcher into completely predictable world devoid of “feel.”

Showing my age - I remember my astonishment many years ago when I was playing Microprose’s Knights of the Sky, a WWI sim that didn’t get nearly the love of the original Red Baron. But in my mind, it was superior. The reason: I was flying a mission, and on the way home from the objective I decided to fly out of the flight path home just to wander. I saw some planes in the distance and started flying their way, when all of a sudden I was being shot at. Two German aircraft had jumped me. I fought hard, had one of them smoking, but I was damaged and knew I was about to be done. Then suddenly the plane on my tail lost a wing and fell out of the sky. I was baffled and when I turned I saw two allied aircraft had come to my rescue. I’d never experienced such a non-scripted, living, dynamic moment in a flight sim (or just about any game!) like that. Red Baron 1 had great graphics, great design, but if you flew out of your designated flight path the world was sterile. Of course, Red Baron 2 fixed that with one of the best, most immersive living and breathing simulations of being a combat pilot ever, only challenged for that title when Falcon 4 came along.

Falcon 4 is a great example of giving you as much or little as you want of the nuts and bolts. I get why some people want to experience what it is like to climb into a cockpit and go through a complete start up. I think it is cool for a few times. But I don’t need to be forced to pee into a flight suit and not be allowed to pause for a game to be a great sim. I used to argue with people who said nothing but the “actual” experience was good enough for them and tell them, OK, have someone stand next to you with a gun and when you get a bullet through the cockpit have them fire it at you, or have someone break your back when you are forced to eject. Or, if you crash and die in the sim, it self destructs and you can’t play it any more.

For me it comes down to whether you want a great simulation of a combat aircraft or a great simulation of being an aircraft pilot in combat.

I have to believe that Microsoft Flight was the last hurrah of the “middlebrow flight sim”, and it proved that the mass market doesn’t want it.(Footnote 1) I personally loved Flight, but it clearly didn’t grab people.

Footnote 1: It turns out they don’t want any other sort of flight simulator, either.

JeffL, great post, I can’t but wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. cheers! <clunks beer stein>

Bunch of DCS stuff world on sale on Steam right now.

Probably going to pick up Flaming Cliffs 3 for $12.

Should I get it too? Help me people. I already have the A-10C.

I wholeheartedly recommend FC3. Much easier to learn to do everything a given plane can do, lets you focus altogether on the employment of the thing rather than the switches. It’s a nice change of pace for me when I don’t want to dig out one of my checklist sheets. Plus, F-15 and Su-27.

Is there a good amount of content in terms of missions or campaigns?