2921

Isn’t Dominant Species a ridiculously long game?

I have a rules query about Citadels. Thanks to our (my) terrible way of reading rules, we thought that in a 4+ player game you look at the available character cards when drawing at the start of the round. However, for a 3-player game the rules are worded different, with no mention of actually looking at the cards, so we played it as blind pick. This is obviously more random and involves less strategy, but I wondered if this was intended to lower the obvious power of the King in a smaller game. In a 2-player game, for example, looking at the cards would mean you know exactly what’s “face-down” and exactly what your opponent has picked…

So, are we playing it right? Do you look at the cards before selecting regardless of the number of players?

2922

You look at the remaining cards when they are passed to you, before choosing one.

There are additional rules for two players (you take two role cards each.)

2923

The way it works is that the king puts a random card facedown, chooses his role, passes to the left. P2 chooses (not blind), passes. P3 chooses, passes back to King.
2nd Role:
Then King, player 2, player 3 choose, and player 3 puts the last card face down.

So, this creates (as you’ve noticed) a serious problem in terms of making the King, the Assassin, and the Thief disproportionately powerful (even though choosing the King still gives you the crown if you are killed, and taking into account that a single role cannot be both killed and robbed in one turn).

For that I recommend the alternate rules that the game designer published on his website, in which you add the 9th role of Artist. That means player 3 gets to discard a role before the 2nd round of role choosing, and creates an element of uncertainty when it returns to the King.

The 2 player version is actually the most psychologically intense one in a “are you the kind of man who would put poison in his own cup or mine” kind of way. Again, the key mechanic is discarding roles: Random role face down, King chooses 1 role, passes WITHOUT discarding. Player 2 chooses role, discards 1 face down, pass back to King.

2nd Role:
King chooses role, discards 1 facedown, passes to P2. P2 chooses role, discards other face down.

Does that make more sense? Also, the best cheat sheet I’ve found for the game (that makes things a lot faster with new players) is having a photocopy with all of the role cards on it. They look at what they’ve been handed, they look at the sheet, they make their choice and do the process of elimination correctly instead of trying to remember all of the roles AND what was in their hand last time etc. Usually not needed by second game, but it’s nice to have.

Also, Dominant Species is a really long game the first time you play it, in my experience, going to nearly 5 hours sometimes. It gets a lot faster with just one or two experienced players, because there are a handful of key concepts that are hard to grasp and merit a lot of rules lookup while you try to sort them out. But once you have at least one person to easily say “Like this” when it comes up, you can actually play a game roughly proportional to the number of people playing.

In fact, I would almost say that it’s the kind of game that benefits from a partial “let’s do as much random stuff in each turn and suss out the rules” playthrough for an hour, and then letting it sink in before trying it again in a little while. It’s not hyper-cerebral or anything, but that way the first real play has everyone on more or less level ground with the opening turns.

2924

One I forgot (that would work well with three players): Through the Ages. I’ve only played it with two, but my understanding is that it scales well (and is possibly better with) three.

It’s not a game that you’re going to finish off in half an hour. But unless you are a min-maxing, analysis paralysis type, you should be able to easily get the game done in 2-3 hours.

Likewise, I just finished playing a game of Age of Empires III: Age of Discovery with four players. We enjoyed it, and I assume it would work as well with three.

2925

We just finished our third Battlestar Galactica game, and I simply adore this thing. First I didn’t think it’d be our kind of game, seeing as it’s a pretty demanding one. But it’s actually right up our alley, at least from the looks of it.

What I love about where we are right now as a group, is that people are beginning to build confidence as Cylons. The first couple of runs were always daunting – the pacing felt awkward and you were pretty clueless as to the level of impact you had as a single Cylon player. Before you knew it, the game was over and all the mishap you’d done was to add boring cards to a lot of skill check. That’s a valid strategy, by all means, but I love how we’ve kind of grown and started to unlocked the “latter part of the game”, where Cylons really start to shine.

I’m not sure if we’ll be incorporating more rules than we already are, though. The basic game plus the extra characters and the Cylon Fleet board from Exodus is more than enough right now. I especially love the latter – that board is so fun and such an invaluably tense addition to the theme and mechanics. I love it. I’m not sure about the rest of the Exodus stuff though. We’ll see.

2926

That makes sense, Thomasch. If you’ve only played three games I don’t think it makes sense to worry about expansions yet. I haven’t played much more than you and I’m not adding any expansion material at this point. Mostly it’s because people have told me the fleet board gives the Cylons an advantage and I’m pretty sure our Cylons are doing just fine. In fact, they’ve won every game so far. But! the last game did come down to a single die roll to determine the winner so I think the humans are close to turning that corner. Once we see that the humans can win a game I’ll probably add the board.

I’d like to throw the Pegasus board in there but then you really have to incorporate executions and (maybe?) treachery cards. I actually want that stuff in there but I think I’m going to wait until everyone has played a few more games. I’m not always playing with the same people so a few of the gang need a little more experience before we add a bunch of new rules.

2927

Also, in the spirit of the thread title I will now recommend a board game (and even a fancy deal on it!): StarCraft is $54 shipped from Amazon. No Prime because it’s from another retailer but still a good price.

2928

The comment about the game being in favor of the Cylons might be true, but seeing as I’ve only played two games using the vanilla rules I couldn’t give you any meaningful statistics to back that up on my part.

In the end it doesn’t matter to me. Battlestar Galactica is about overcoming great odds and working with people to solve problems that arise every turn. The way the game enforces teamwork and communication is inspiring, and the definite highlight of the game for me. I have no quarrels about giving one or two random players a small advantage. In one way it’s kind of lonely playing as a Cylon, so giving them a fair chance of winning is okay with me. The game creates interesting conflicts and stories, and that’s what matters.

I remember our second game very well, and it’s actually quite similar to your scenario, Mike. We had two Cylons in play – myself and a friend – and we were one turn away from winning. Galactica was down to one fuel, so the immediate effect of a second reveal (based on that specific loyalty card) would ruin them. The only thing that stopped us was the player who had her turn between ours, who actually managed to force a successful jump (with a die roll) and reach Kobold. Great game, really tense, and fun for everyone. We’ve been raving about it ever since.

The reason I don’t like the Pegasus expansion is the execution aspect. I don’t know why it gives me a bad vibe, but killing off characters just to force a reveal or a re-roll of a new character feels kind of forced theme-wise and pointless mechanically when there’s already a brig. It still annoys me that some of that has leaked over to Exodus. Any opinions and experience would be appreciated though. I’m not ruling out anything at this point. The only thing I know is that I really want the plastic Base Stars. :3

2929

Treachery cards are only modestly consequential but worth including, not least because without them Reckless cards are…not so reckless (in fact, I know of some veteran groups that have been house-ruling making crisis checks that result in negative numbers automatically reckless just to give them more relevance). The Pegasus board’s main purpose is giving Galactica a longer life bar, which is crucial with the potential for Cylon Megafleets jumping in with a cylon ready to roll 25 times to hit your ship (I only rolled 4 8s, alas, last time, and Pegasus almost got them off the hook). I would not play with the Cylon Board without Pegasus, and I wouldn’t play without the Cylon board at all, if that makes sense.

The Pegasus board is a nice alternative for human characters, and with Exodus the effect of its more dramatic roles (engine room, air lock) becomes extensively diluted because you are much less likely to have the option to use them or the interest in investing resources to the point where you gamble on potentially killing a human (plus, being brigged is arguably more useful because the new Cylon board is not something you want to give them access to quickly). I think you’ll find that with experience deaths will mostly come from either the trauma tokens, the Admiral choosing to kill someone with her power or Cally shooting someone, and they won’t be all that common.

Thomasch, I’m not sure how familiar you are with the series but killing Cylons and trying to execute people who are suspected of Cylon-ness/sympathizing is drawn straight from the show. I think by Exodus the game has successfully imposed substantial costs for attempting it, just as the new loyalty cards have added an interesting twist to looking at another player’s cards.

What I would say is rather than avoiding Pegasus, newer Battlestar players should play with the Pegasus board, cards, characters and the Exodus board, cards, characters, vipers, CAG etc. The parts you want to omit are the “Caprica” alternate ending rules (because they are not good, period) and the Nebula/trauma token/ally mechanics (because it does add a good bit of complexity to the game and is really only appropriate if you’re looking for a new twist).

Depending on the number of players, you may need a quasi-Cylon: of those, I think the newest Sympathetic Cylon variant is my favorite (because it retains the loyalty reveal), the Cylon leaders are not to my liking, and the Cylon Sympathizer from the original is worthless. The final five cards are thematically silly but then so was the idea in the actual series, so I’m ok with them since they are mechanically sound.

The argument about who the game favors is a bottomless one, but I think with the combination I’ve suggested you have a pretty even chance as either and what’s more important, you’ll have interesting options at almost every major turning point of the game from either side. Gone are the long turns of not much that sometimes could plague the original + Pegasus.

FINALLY, I actually came in here because I just found out that the Glory to Rome people have released another unattractive but well-designed game, Barons. I’m picking that up as well this weekend, and I understand it’s easy to teach and has a lot of depth on replays, which is why GtR keeps making appearances.

2930

Cheers LK, that makes sense. We’ll try out the alternate rules next time.

2931

Anyone picking up the new Battleship Galaxies today? Looks cool.

2932

My GOD why do they insist on making their games so hideous? It can’t be that difficult to hire a decent graphic artist these days. Every other company seems to manage it.

2933

We and other friends of mine found Barons to be quite pedestrian and mundane. The basic problem is that the interaction consists of attacking the other players layout. When you attack their layout, you have to use up your turn, plus at least one card if not two, to get rid of one of their cards. You lose card advantage and frankly the benefit is not worth the loss. If no one attacks, then the person who wins is the person who drew the best cards.

I know Ender has been very enthusiastic about the game, but keep in mind he plays with tweeners, who would be the perfect audience for this game. If you just play along without really thinking about any strategy, the game works fine. On the other hand, I have much better games (including Glory to Rome) that fit in this game space for me.

So tempted to get Battleships Galaxy. But I just got Conquest of Nerath and haven’t finished a full game of it yet so I’m trying desperately to hold off :)

2934

Everything LK said about Battlestar expansions makes sense to me except the newer players part. Maybe it’s been a while since he taught it to a new group or maybe we’re morons but I really thought the base game was more than enough to learn in one session. Trying to add on treachery/reckless/executions/etc seems a bit much for the first game.

Treachery seems kind of odd without a Cylon leader, though. Unless Ellen is in the game nobody will have them until a reveal happens so I guess you’re just hoping the destiny deck doesn’t screw you over? Kind of odd that it makes more sense to be reckless early in the game. Later in the game it probably makes for interesting choices when the revealed Cylons can only grab two skill cards and Treachery cards only go from 1-3.

Thanks for the suggestions about what parts to use, though. When we are ready (I still have a friend who has only played once so I want to get him in another game or two) I will probably give that configuration a shot.

2935

To be fair, looking at the images on BGG, Barons is only plain, not actively vile to look upon like Glory to Rome.

2936

BTW, after swearing off 3-player, vanilla Starcraft because if you attack someone, then the person you didn’t attack will win the game, every time, we tried out a 3-player scenario from the Brood War expansion.

I was Mengsk, and I had to accrue 12 vp the usual way, by taking territory. Player 2 was Jim Reynor, and he had to take a territory on my homeworld to plant a homing beacon to attract the zerg to it. Player 3 was a Protoss faction, and they had to wipe out all the zerg on the board. The zerg were a preprogrammed zombie faction somewhat controlled by the Reynor player. They just built up on their two planets until that homing beacon was placed, then they’d start moving toward the Mengsk homeworld.

Oh, and if the zerg ever found Mengsk, they just outright win. No rolls, they just kill everything in the territory they attacked.

So Mengsk goes right after Reynor and vice versa, but we have to spare some attention for the Protoss player because if we ignore him, he’s going to build up and wipe the zerg right out. We were too busy fighting each other and the protoss ended up winning, but it was a much better game than a normal 3-player.

2937

Good to know, Dean. I’ve recently started playing Starcraft again because it is a fantastic alternative to TI, and picked up the Brood War expansion for $20 from Cardhaus since it was so cheap (but have yet to use it).

2938

I think you’re in the perfect spot for the game, Alan. You’ve got an enthusiastic partner who wants to play through multiple scenarios to learn all the mechanics, one at a time just like an RTS.

This! For the demo I played, we were thrown in one of the later scenarios, with just tons of complexity AND the guy demoing told us we could ignore certain things which told us there was even more complexity to be had.

One of my fellow players summed it up, “If ever there was a game that should’ve been a computer game, this is it.”

So glad you’re having fun with it, Alan. I wouldn’t give it an unconditional thumbs up.

2939

Dean, that sounds awesome and all but stop making me want to play StarCraft. It’s been sitting on a shelf for a while waiting for the right time but now is not that time. If I try to explain one more ruleset to my friends they are going to stab me with a spoon.

2940

I respectfully disagree. The art is beyond terrible and they’re still in love with garish gradients using primary colors. If you want to see what cards from a small indy publisher should look like check out Summoner Wars, Yomi, or anything from Indie Boards & Cards or Tasty Minstrel. Cambridge Games Factory has no excuse to put out stuff that looks like a 70s nightmare.