My wife, daughter and I played the newly-arrived Castle Panic today and it was great fun. They’d never played co-op games before, so just that concept alone was novel for them, as was the tower defense setting. It was their idea to play a second time, not mine, which is the best litmus test that its a hit. I think this one has staying power.

Fear for my soul: I just bought both Totaler Krieg!: Axis Empire and Dai Senso: Axis Empires from the CoolStuffInc. sale.

Completely one of those cases where I have extremely fond memories of playing Totaler Krieg (the earlier version) 12 years ago, and just bought something very expensive that will probably never come to the table.

But I so love the idea of having those big maps set up, and pushing tanks around Poland!

CSI has their ‘year end blowout’ going. Which is to say, basically their fifth sale in the last two months.

Rune Age and Blood Bowl: Team Manager for $18 each. Game of Thrones 2nd Ed and Cyclades for $33 each. I got Claustrophobia for Christmas and haven’t even played it yet, but I’m still tempted by the Ex Profundis expansion for $28.

Has anyone had any experience with Ex Profundis? I actually think my wife might like it since it includes girl characters.

I need guidance, or I will experience tremendous buyer’s remorse! So much remorse!

I think Civilization TBG is a steal at $29.99 too. :)

EDIT: Never mind. Apparently they took it off. What the heck.

Well we played Eclipse last night. The first thing I want to say is that even though my first experience didn’t correspond with the experiences of people in the thread who commented, I really do appreciate the comments.

I played with three other people. Basically everyone explored and placed so that no one could reach them, and then for the single situation where someone could reach me, he quickly offered an ambassador and since I had nothing in my rep slots and desperately needed money, I took it. So then the game devolved into exploring for the GCD’s, killing them, getting (random remember) rep tiles and then one PvP battle (finally) at the end of the game. The person who boxed himself in with the most GCD’s won because he had three of the 4 rep tiles.

What a let down. There are some good mechanics in the game but someone is going to have to really show me how this game doesn’t reward turtling. Oh yes, I could have sent my dreadnaughts after the 1 VP hex my neighbor was occupying (after of course hoping for the Wormhole generator to come AND having the turn order to get it) but why? Even though it wasn’t likely, I could still lose my dreadnaught to two interceptors so I could get a 1 vp hex. WTH?

I’m not feeling the love here. It just felt like a three hour luck fest. I’m going to play with three players again but unless my experience really changes, I’m going to make some changes in this game. The first thing is to get rid of 1 VP hexes. The next is to reduce the number of hexes available overall so that there will be some competition over the ‘good’ spaces. The next is to get rid of the Diplomacy, it just rewards turtling even more.

So again, I do appreciate the comments and I do wish my experience had been a lot more positive. I spent $80 on this game and would like to get something out of it.

A few comments/questions, Lorini:

  1. Did you limit the number of Class-3 hexes? This is variable based on the number of players, and limits turtling to an extent in that there’s a limited supply of sectors available. Class 2 and 1 are fixed, but draw you closer to the middle.

  2. I’m really surprised no one could reach you out of 4 players. Sometimes this might be through the galactic center, but they should still have a route to you.

  3. The wormhole generator is fairly rare - never count on it coming up. Also, your dreadnaught should have nothing to worry from two interceptors. You have far more room for tech and should have computers & initiative upgrades to be able to kill those ships before they even get a shot.

  4. In my game, the random rep tiles had very little to do with who won. A lot more VPs came from tech level and sector control/expansion.

Also wanted to point out something that is easy to overlook (I did): During combat rolls, 1 ALWAYS misses and 6 ALWAYS hits, regardless of computers and shields. They only come into effect for 2-5 results.

Sorry you didn’t have a good time with the game - maybe it was because you guys approached it as a VP arms race rather than playing to the theme?

I wouldn’t worry about it Lorini. It seems to me that unless you are playing with at least one really experienced player the first play throughs of a game are kinda lousy. It seems either some key rules always get misinterperated, or some really important strategys have yet to be figured out (or both).

One other thing: Did you remember about exchanging between resources 2:1 (or higher if alien)? Even if you’re short on a resource (in your case, money), the others can make up for it. I ran my game completely off a bunch of mining colonies.

Yes, the experienced player in the group pointed this out as well.

Nope, everyone was actively turning wormholes so no one could reach them except for the one player who immediately offered an ambassador.

OK you caught me in an exaggeration there :). But seriously why should I risk my dreadnaughts to any 1 vp hex? That’s all I had that was bordering my colonies on the 9th turn of the game.

Yes, the winner had this as well. The 25% factor was spot on really. But because no one could reach him, he was able to tech up and control explored sectors.

Yes, we knew this.

See we don’t play games to theme. If you win by getting VP, then we play to get VP. Theme is not important for us as far as playing a long game. And I guess that’s what I should have realized, that this is mainly a thematic game with some strategy additions, instead of being a strategy/war type game like Space Empires.

Thanks very much for your comments and questions, Vesper.

That’s part of why I’m posting. I’d like to know what we can do about the turtling. I realize that turtling means that you may or may not win the game, but aggression doesn’t really seem to be rewarded in this game. It appears risky and you may lose a lot without winning much.

Yes, we did this many times, thanks again.

Aggression has chance for decent rewards in that you might be drawing up to 5 random tokens to pick the best from. And in the worst case scenario of your fleet being wiped out, you still get to draw at least 1.

So in that way, if you spend the game running around stomping small ships, you could easily end up with 16 VPs on your influence/bonus track.

Agreed, which is why the winner kept exploring and hoping for GCD’s. War on his terms. He knows what’s going to happen, he doesn’t have to worry about moving into the hex and then having some surprise upgrades or additional ships added, etc.

I’ve posted my feelings on another forum as well (not BGG yet because the hype monsters will quickly troll any negative discussions) and I’ve also sent it to another friend of mine who really likes the game.

Great observations Lorini. I still haven’t arranged a game with my group, so I have no idea how it’ll play out. But I’ll be sure to have your post in mind though.

On the other hand, we did play Ghost Stories yesterday. Holy shit. After a bit of fumbling with the rules the first time around, we finally grasped them by our second try.

-34 points… Yeah…

But holy hell, what a fun and challenging game! In some ways Ghost Stories reminds me a bit about Arkham Horror, and the way you constantly coordinate rushes back and forth between gates in order to close them. Gates being ghosts in this case, and seals being Buddha statues. The double sided boards are also awesome, and a great way to introduce some variation. There doesn’t really seem to be any superficial or shallow mechanic in place here, just pure reasoning and frantic damage control. :)

Our group also played Eclipse yesterday. There were five of us, all first-time Eclipse players. Four of us with 30+ years of gaming experience (we game a LOT). All 5 of us agreed we had a LOT of fun PLAYING the game, but this came mostly from a solitaire management experience. Competitively, this game is very lacking. It really was fun building a space empire and customizing ships. I feel the end game and competitive structure in Eclipse is EXTREMELY lacking, borderline turning a incredible game into yet another bad turtling build-up fest with little or no player/conflict interaction.

I feel Eclipse suffers from one of the most often used, and possibly worst, multiplayer features in build and conquer type boardgames, and that’s the dreaded Free-For-All gameplay leading to the eventual Pile-On effect. Any player initiating conflict is usually rolled over by a neighbor because they are vulnerable while fighting someone else. Any player becoming the obvious leader in the game gets attacked by everyone and is easily pummeled from having to fight everyone at once (the Pile-On). As a player, how do you avoid this? You turtle and keep quiet, and you certainly don’t do well enough to be the obvious leader. This results in boring, uninteresting, and just goofy gameplay. Most games (with knowledgeable players) play out the same. Everyone turtles, no one initiates conflict or aggression, and usually everyone attacks everyone else on the last turn of the game. The winner is typically the one who happens to benefit the most from the chaotic last turn or the player that persuades the most players to attack others or to do something foolish. The wisest option for players is to just turtle, not upset the apple cart, talk other players into fighting each other, and to get VP for yourself from non-interactive mechanics. BORING!!! Stupid stupid way to design a game, yet most games are like this. Eclipse suffers from all of this.

How do you fix these problems? The last is my preference.
[ul]
[li]Players actions don’t have big detrimental effect on others (Dominion). Doesn’t work well in expand and conquer games.
[/li][li]Don’t allow players to gang up on others. The game requires mapped enemies where you are only allowed to attack/effect your enemy. Players A and Z are enemies. Players B and Y are enemies. Players C and X are enemies. Etc. Not a great option.
[/li][li]Big rewards for aggression, combat, conflict, etc. This is very hard to design and rarely works. Eclipse is a perfect example of this. Eclipse rewards players involved in combats by allowing them to draw VP tiles. While this is a start, the rewards are not worth getting pounded on by everyone else because you’re weakened from fighting.
[/li][li]The best, easiest, and most fun way to fix this problem, and one rarely found in most multiplayer games: 2 equal sides. One side wins, the other loses. Yep, it’s that easy. Fighting doesn’t leave you open to the whimsical nature of FFA players. You have your allies to keep retaliation in check. I can’t think of a single game with a team option that suffers from turtling, passive, non-aggressive boring play.
[/li][/ul]

Examples:

Game that suffers from boring non-interactive turtle fests. It’s not wise to attack or to take any sort of action against another player, or be perceived as the strongest player in the game. You do and you’re getting piled on or exploited by everyone else. These games play out the same way. Wise players avoid conflict and don’t become the obvious target/leader. Players make a made rush at end of game to get victory. Winner determined by last turns chaos fallout. I wish all of these games had an options to play as two sides of equal number of players:
[ul]
[li]Runewars: Boring turtle fest. Not wise to attack. Not wise to be front runner.
[/li][li]Twilight Imperium. Are you the obvious game leader? Guess what, you’re about to be steamrolled by everyone else and you now have no chance of winning. There’s your reward for doing well. The winner? Some random player who benefits the most from the steamrolled player.
[/li][li]Eclipse. Leader will get ganged up on and get crushed so no one wants to upset anyone by attacking or being the obvious leader. Best play is to lay low and make a mad rush on last turn. Our game played out like this. One player had a huge VP lead. Last turn he was attacked by everyone. Winner (me) was the one who benefited the most throughout his demise.
[/li][/ul]

Games with great ways to encourage expansions, conflict, interaction, and doesn’t reward turtles. These are all team games:
[ul]
[li]Conquest of Nerath: Fights all over the place, both sides battling for territory, aggressive play from start to end.
[/li][li]Axis & Allies: Expansion is rewarded, teams protected each other. Lots of warfare in this game.
[/li][li]Star Trek: Fleet Captains: Federation vs Klingons. Lots of battle. Lots of aggressive play.
[/li][li]War of the Ring: Free peoples vs Darkness. Tons of interaction, battles, etc…
[/li][/ul]

I don’t know why, but reading the posts talking abut Eclipse made me think it would be cool to have a space-themed version of Small World where you played advanced Civs conquering planets.

Had to split my posts into rant and Eclipse improvements. Lorini, I also think Eclipse would benefit greatly from tweaks. My initial thoughts, from only one game, are similar to yours:

[ul]
[li]1/2 the number of ring III (outer) hexes to draw from. More fighting over the hexes in the I and II rings.
[/li][li]Only draw Reputation tiles from battles against other players, not from battles with Ancients and the GCDS. This will REALLY makes a big difference. No longer can you get tons of VP by battling weak NPC ships.
[/li][li]Less technologies drawn each turn. In our game too many came out and rarely affected who got what. Most ships at end game were the same fully loaded beasts. I would like to see more importance on varying techs across the sides. Maybe 2 less drawn per turn?
[/li][li]Shorter game. 9 turns took too long. Maybe 7 turns? Our 5 player game took ~6 hours.
[/li][/ul]

And of course, my favorite, and one that doesn’t need many of the above changes: TWO TEAMS! Team A vs Team B. Add up VPs for each team at end.

On my IPad but TOTALLY agree with the Rep suggestion that would fix a lot. Might break the GCD’s, so I’ll think on it some.

6 hours!? Are you kidding? I don’t see how 9 turns took you that long, unless you guys spent long stretches of each turn analyzing victory point scenarios.

Since the game is sold out and the BGG hype machine is in full swing, I’m just going to sell my copy. I should be able to get my $80 back by the middle of January.