Remember when Scott Walker was going to lead Wisconsin in job growth?

[Flowers]

@ineffablebob

Edit: Noticed I forgot to mention that this post about unions was tied to this thread to address Walker’s anti-union work that caused all those protests. It’s not a total non sequitur, really. :)

Unions are like a lot of other things in life. Too little is bad…too much is bad…the right amount is good.

Too little is when the workers have no representation, and are screwed out of anything resembling a living wage by employers. This is what’s happening in today’s part-time temporary warehouse worker market, for instance.

Too much is when workers get so much leverage that the companies are required to sacrifice their agility and good business practice for the good of labor. This is what happened to the US auto industry, and they’re still feeling the effects.

Getting is just right is hard, obviously. It may even be impossible under free market conditions, since this certainly seems to be a special case of the tragedy of the commons problem. Labor is a common resource used by companies…all the companies would be better off if everyone treated their workers better, since said workers would become a healthy market for their products/services…but any one company is better off by treating workers poorly, since that cuts their costs and improves the bottom line. Typically the best way out of a tragedy of the commons situation is an outside force that imposes a low-end price on the resource (in this case, wages/benefits/job security) which is higher than an individual company would pay, but low enough to allow them to still be profitable.

Unions have a track record of doing a good job at being that outside force at first, but over time they tend to force the price up too high. That’s where examples like Toyota vs GM seem to show that non-union (or at least minimal union) is better. It’s not necessarily true, but too much union is just as bad as no union at all.

Good post. Homework time. Take a look at how Germany handles union negotiations across industries and tell me if you think that is a good thing or a bad thing, and if it would work in the United States.

[Houngan]

@Flowers

Pol Pot.

Tell that to the pile of skulls industry.

[Houngan]

@Sinij

I actually agree with this. Once you decrease employment costs past certain threshold overall economic inefficiency of low consumption offsets efficiency gains of low employment costs.

In plain speak - Ford had it right. You had to pay your workers enough so they could buy your own cars. This way everyone is better off and there are no problems socially downstream that are costly to clean up.

Wallmart is prime example of “not doing it right”.

Ah, that’s a balanced approach I can agree with. Your earlier posts were too binary in their assumptions. I’ve worked as non-union in a union shop (UPS) and have seen the abuses, but then I’ve worked in non-union chaos as well and know many people employed by Toyota at the big plant in Georgetown. Balance is the key, absolutely.

[Sinij]

I never stated, that even in principle, what Walker is doing is uniformly good for everyone involved. In all cases of Union Busting it obviously harms someone, the only question is if net effect is positive or negative.

I expected it to be a net positive in WI and sounded my surprise when faced with evidence to contrary.

[HumanTon]

If low union participation rates, low tax tax rates, and a high amount of catering to the wishes of the local moneybags constituted a magic recipe for sustained economic growth, then Mississippi would have been a economic dynamo for the last 150 years.

[Robert_Sharp]

Except that Mississippi has other issues, which make it hard to use to assess such things. It lacks a good infrastructure, is dangerously low in education outcomes, and has a systemic financial problem. Plus, I’m not sure it has good industry to help it get out of such a mess. I’m sure that much of that was/is the result of traditional policies that favored an elite ruling class, but I’m also not sure that any amount of good-willed politics could get them out of it any time soon.

[arrendek]

@Robert Sharp

Except that Mississippi has other issues, which make it hard to use to assess such things. It lacks a good infrastructure, is dangerously low in education outcomes, and has a systemic financial problem.

All rooted in low gov’t spending/low taxes, supporting evidence to HumanTon’s point.

@Robert Sharp

Plus, I’m not sure it has good industry to help it get out of such a mess. I’m sure that much of that was/is the result of traditional policies that favored an elite ruling class, but I’m also not sure that any amount of good-willed politics could get them out of it any time soon.

This was his/her point.

Edit: Just call me the explainer. I don’t know why I bothered posting this. Oh well, carry on.

[CLWheeljack]

@arrendek

Edit: Just call me the explainer. I don’t know why I bothered posting this. Oh well, carry on.

I probably would’ve just gone with a <thatsthejoke.gif>

[arrendek]

@CLWheeljack

I probably would’ve just gone with a <thatsthejoke.gif>

[jpinard]

ineffablebob and arrendek - excellent posts.

Flowers - Walker is a puppet of the Koch Brothers basically doing whatever they ask. When Walker is done, he’s expecting to be compensated nicely for his subservience. Why didn’t you bring this up?

[Soapyfrog]

@jpinard

Flowers - Walker is a puppet of the Koch Brothers basically doing whatever they ask. When Walker is done, he’s expecting to be compensated nicely for his subservience. Why didn’t you bring this up?

Obviously Flowers is also bought and paid for by the Koch brothers.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

To be fair, these days who isn’t?

[Alstein]

The folks who aren’t rich.

I’m convinced Things aren’t going to change until the ultra-rich know fear in some form or fashion. I mean, we didn’t get the Progressive Era and all its good changes without the fear of Communism. Teddy Roosevelt wasn’t a fan of the poor, but he was scared of Communism (and if he hadn’t done those reforms, we would have had a genuine revolt somewhere)

I do think we’re about 10-30 years from a ballot box revolt at the current pace (we’re going to need a rise in radical leftists first, but that’s coming)

As for states like WIsconsin and NC, when the Walkers/McCrory’s of the world lose there, the other side is going to implement a lock-step agenda in kind, one that might be nastier to business than what it was before. That raw anger isn’t going to be mollified by just winning.