Ridley Scott does the Crusades

Resonance, eh? I’m not really sure what that means…from your posts earlier in the thread I’m assuming it is a negative and unproductive relationship to current events and political agendas. The biggest achievement of BHdown was how it took a very political current war issue and turned it into a story that was mostly about the men on the ground and the people who lived there. The politics were there to provide a setting. Granted, that was how Mark Bowden largely wrote the book, with additional political commentary barely seen in the movie pertaining mostly to strategic and tactical military concerns.
I’d say there is far more danger of Crusade movie mirroring Ridley Scott’s other historical movies than Blackhawk, since that was a pretty unique script. Then again, if it was far too resonant for you, who knows.[/quote]

For me the book was an excellent commentary on the whole situation, from the reasons for being there, right down to individual soldier’s mental states. The film came off as a high-tech re-make of ‘Zulu’. Faceless enemy blown away by heroes.

Did you read the book before or after?

I thought BHD was a travesty compared to the book. Much of it was pure war-porn to beat off to and it changed quite a few things from the book.
I’d always had the illusion that the vast majority of Somali combatants were just local guys who were off their faces from khat who turned out to see what the commotion was and joined in the fight with their AKs, which everyone had. Scott managed to change that into an organised, fit and uniformed militia who also used technicals in combat, like a mechanised battalion. Compare that to stories of old men and kids firing and getting taken down and you can see the twist that occurred to make it seem more like Zulu.
The book was a great story of a fucked up operation, the movie played to our natural admiration of courageous stands against the odds, etc.
Scott directs action movies, I wouldn’t expect anything subtle or balanced from him.

Did you read the book before or after?[/quote]

After. When I saw the film I wasn’t even aware there was a book.

Frazier- Uh, there was an organized militia involved(not everyone had RPGs), but in the film the Somalis are most definitely not uniformed nor did they behave like a mechanized battalion.

I like the movie being denigrated as a “remake of Zulu”. What a dramatic change from the reality of the situation, where a small band of heavily armed and highly trained soldiers held off an army of poorly trained and armed locals.

There was an organised militia but the vast majority of Somalis attacking weren’t involved in it and didn’t wear fatigues, bandanas and combat boots. Most were in civvies like white shirts. Hell, in the movie the rebels looked like they wanted to be part of a rap act. There weren’t many of the skinny little guys with fuzzy-wuzzy hair that were actually the norm.
The mechanized battalion comment was related to the movie’s use of Technicals- something that wasn’t used at all in reality. They were more of a prestige item than something to be used in combat.

‘Zulu’ is one of my all time favourite movies. At least it followed the history with a bit more accuracy. The Zulu warriors were not poorly trained locals- they were something to be feared. In BHD, there was no Isandlwahna to make the point that their foe was formidable.

Instead, a small band of heavily armed soldiers fucks up an operation in a large city with a populace who have no concept of ‘Get the hell away from the firing line’ . They bunker in some buildings overnight while little birds minigun to hamburger anything that goes near them. The foe is completely disorganised, untrained and comprises anything from little kids to elderly men with a relatively small amount of militia sprinkled in.

A proper look at the events of that day wouldn’t depict the Rangers as some heroic Foreign Legion contingent holding off the hordes. It would more likely leave people wondering about the sanity of the Somali citizens.

Frazier- Seriously, have you seen the movie? Your comments about the uniforms and “rap act” shit really call that into question. The villian milita leader was wearing a bandana, but there’s a big jump from that to the militia wearing uniforms.

Also, you seem to be arguing against yourself:

"Hell, in the movie the rebels looked like they wanted to be part of a rap act. There weren’t many of the skinny little guys with fuzzy-wuzzy hair that were actually the norm. "

" The Zulu warriors were not poorly trained locals- they were something to be feared. In BHD, there was no Isandlwahna to make the point that their foe was formidable. "

So was the movie overstating or understating the Somalis?

Your last paragraph calls into question whether you’ve read the book. The book stressed the heroism/whatever of the Americans, not as strongly as the movie perhaps, but it was there.

Seriously, I’ve seen the fucking movie. Change the word ‘uniforms’ to ‘fatigues’ since you seem to be getting ready for a semantic argument.

I’m not arguing with myself-
1.The movie overstated the training and equipment of the Somalis to make them appear a more credible foe. They were actually a rabble. The premise of an action movie like BHD loses its heroic appeal when elite rangers are being taken on by a Somali equivalent of Dad’s Army.

  1. The movie had no way of demonstrating any military prowess that the Somalis had because there were no prior conflicts. The best it could do was show what a pack of bullies the militia were for taking the aid cargo at the start. I’m sure the movie would have overstated any prior actions if it could have to reinforce the underdog storyline.

Zulu had a superior historical setup in terms of drama. There’s a big difference between having a victorious, disciplined enemy army attacking a lone outpost and a bungled raid in a hostile city with lots of militia/crazy civilians.

Seriously, I’ve read the fucking book. (What is your fucking game here? Anyone who doesn’t see things the way you do MUSN’T HAVE READ THE BOOK!!)
Do you remember the part of the book where it describes a junior officer cowering in the back of a Humvee? Where the Rangers at the base balked at returning to the fight?
The author rightly applauds the courage of individuals under fire- the DF boys also get a great wrap. I thought he was pretty critical of the Rangers- their immaturity, hero-worship of the DF, communications and discipline under fire.
None of that gets a mention in the movie. Instead it’s a standard yarn about how good ol’ American grit and hardware wins the battle even though it can’t save the war.

Sorry, I thought BHD the movie was quite simply awful.

The trailer featuring Universal Soldier cutting off his plastercast gave me a taster for the likely format and it didn’t dissapoint on that front at the very least.

I do concede that I haven’t read the book, I have read some of his others so I can only hope that BHD was given the Hollywood treatment and the film bears no relation to it.

Seriously, what is the selling point of BHD the movie? Even as a 90 minute, guns blazing war film it isn’t that much cop.

In the fall of 2001, after some false starts, it finally started to happen.

Scott was working on a different project with screenwriter William Monahan when he raised the subject. "I said, ‘What do you know about knights,’ " Scott recalls, "and he said, ‘In armor? Hard armor or chain mail?’ " The director laughs. He knew he’d found his man.

This conversation occurred “in the shadow of 9/11,” he says. He’s sure his knight film would have happened with or without that cataclysm or the wars that followed it – but he also says that 9/11, and the strong reaction to Bush’s crusade remark, was part of the reason he decided not to put the word in its title.

It was still going to be set during the Crusades, however. This was Monahan’s doing. The screenwriter had argued that these hard-fought holy wars would offer the most dramatic context in which to develop Scott’s knightly hero.

Whatever its intentions, Ridley Scott’s knight movie cannot escape either the historical era in which it is set or the times in which it was made. It’s likely to be seen as both a harmless Hollywood rendition and a dangerous provocation; as both historically evocative and historically obtuse. To a moderately neutral observer, it doesn’t appear to be intentionally anti-anything, except religious fanaticism of all stripes. But as one of Fox’s imported historical experts put it, the film is sure to be “interpreted by as many interpreters as there are.”

Screenwriter Monahan agrees. “Movies are such high-voltage cultural events,” he explains, “that they sometimes get people coming out of the woodwork to unleash programmatic rhetoric, irrespective of what the movie actually is.” The film he and Scott made has nothing to do with 9/11, he maintains, and as for accuracy, well, Shakespeare modified history too: “What you use, as a dramatist, is what plays.”

“This is not a documentary,” another Fox expert, Columbia medievalist and film scholar Hamid Dabashi, warned the press in Pasadena. “This is a work of art.”

Best, perhaps, to leave that for history to judge.

Still, if you talk long with Dabashi and others who’ve seen the film, one particularly striking sequence is likely to come up. It’s also the only one that Scott – the man with the Hollywood instincts and the visual DNA – mentions when asked to name the most meaningful visuals in his film.

It begins up close and personal, in the midst of that desperate struggle to hold the breach in Jerusalem’s wall. Orlando Bloom has lost his helmet – as all stars do in such battles, lest their fans lose track of them among the grunting, bleeding masses – and he’s slashing away like a berserker, sometimes backlit, sometimes in slow motion.

But then Scott’s camera gradually pulls us into the air above the shattered wall. We see the fighters shrink and the horizon expand. It’s as if we’ve taken God’s point of view, from which it is a great deal harder – impossible, in fact – to justify the savagery below.

“That clearly speaks for itself, right?” Scott says. “And that’s where I think the visual is better than words.”

This could be interesting. :)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/29/AR2005042900744.html

Apparently it doesn’t show Muslims in a bad light.

http://tinyurl.com/brc2s

There were uneasy rumblings among Arab groups that obtained an early treatment of the script a year or so ago. They found the film potentially fraught with stereotypes about 12th century Muslims fighting Christians for control of Jerusalem, negative images that might have inflamed anti-Muslim sentiment.

The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee was among those worried groups, but half a dozen members came away greatly relieved after a “Kingdom of Heaven” screening arranged for them by Scott.

“It’s one of the better representations of Muslims we’ve seen out of Hollywood,” said Laila Al-Qatami, a spokeswoman for the Washington-based group. “We thought that he did a good job tackling a potentially volatile subject and avoided doing a simplified, stereotyped story of Muslim vs. Christian.”

Goddamnit…

I’ve also heard that the 3-hour cut of the movie is awesome, but the version that made it to theaters got chopped big time.

I’ve also heard that the 3-hour cut of the movie is awesome, but the version that made it to theaters got chopped big time.[/quote]

Hopefully it will be a deleted scene on the dvd.

Eva Green nudies.

Looking forward to checking this out later today. Trying to stay positive.

trying to stay upbeat about this one as well. I hope that if the theatrical cut is chopped down terribly, someone will release Scott’s full director’s cut (after all, isn’t he the one that sort of got hte director’s cut ball rolling with Blade Runner?)

I hope that if the theatrical cut is chopped down terribly, someone will release Scott’s full director’s cut

There definitely will be a Director’s Cut available on DVD. I read an interview with Scott some days ago and he mentioned it’ll be around three and a half hours.
-Julian

I just saw it. It was interesting, and im not sure if I liked it or not. A very strange movie.

Interesting as in Braveheart interesting or Joan of Arc interesting?

Interesting as in Braveheart interesting or Joan of Arc interesting?[/quote]

Never saw Joan of Arc, I liked Kingdom of Heaven more than Braveheart but most will disagree with me on that.

Here are some of my thoughts on the film.

The love story is a very small part of the movie and doesn’t take up much time which is good.

The battle scenes while good have been done in so many recent movies that you don’t really see anything new. However all the wide shots with thousands of men do look better than in any other film I’ve seen. Mainly because they don’t look blatantly CGI like Troy or the Lord of the Rings movies. (Yes even though the LOTRs had good effects I still think those huge CGI army shots look like ass even in Return of the King.)

The plot is fairly complicated and its not as elegant as in Braveheart or Gladiator. This movie won’t be as big as those two mainly due to the plot, which won’t connect with audiences like Gladiator. In Kingdom of Heaven no one is fighting for freedom or even revenge.

I thought the most interesting character is the crusader king of jerusalem. Actually most of the other characters were simply not that interesting including Saladin.

To the people who think this will be a propoganda film for the crusades are totally wrong. After watching it I don’t see how this movie could be interperated as anything other than pro-athiest/anti-zealot.