You neatly illustrate the great divide in PvP fans. There are those who like PvP as sport, with even competition as the goal, and arenas and battlegrounds the preferred venues for combat. Nothing wrong with that. And then there are those who like PvP as war, where the tension of never knowing where the enemy is or when they might descend on you, and the thrill of coming across an enemy isolated from his support where you can crush him, make questing and general world activity more interesting. I am in the latter category, as I find general MMO activities at best a sort of mild diversion and at worst rather boring, unless leavened with the fear of being ganked (and the option to gank when I’m feeling ornery). There is still competition there, but it’s in the broader strokes–you may gank and be ganked in a host of uneven fights, but in the end you are either a survivor or a victim.
Thoro
2022
In my opinion, no other MMO has really had RvR since DAoC. They’ve all been missing a crucial component: more than two sides in a conflict. Those server imbalances that are so rampant could usually be beat by the two underdog realms entering brief(very brief; typically ending just as the objective was met, and squabbling over said objective on a smaller scale ensued) alliances to trounce the side that was dominating.
I’m sort of curious why most games’ pvp involves only two sides.
rossm
2025
In Jumpgate the two weaker factions were never* able to overcome the dominant one. It got worse and worse as more people realized this, and the numbers became insurmountable.
by never I mean not that I’m aware of. I quit following the game a very long time ago.
you grind in guild wars to unlock more options for pvp gear and skills. that’s not just about looks.
Why stop at 3 factions? I would prefer FFA and let the player community decide how many factions should exist. Unfortunately games like Darkfall sucked, I would like an experienced developer to attempt that game.
It didn’t affect my competitive edge. Besides you can just pay for it if you really hate grinding.
Yes. I have no idea if it could even be remotely profitable, but I’d love to see a game like this done with enough skill and resources to overcome basic technical and performance issues and offer a well-supported gameworld.
Wolff
2030
Totally agree with my naivete on DaoC. Played some sort of spellsword to near the level cap and got very bored so stopped playing. To me (and I’m presuming others) RvR sounds alot like shard vs shard, which I don’t think has really been done.
As to the post about two types of PvP I totally agree. I enjoy the feeling of having to look over my shoulder while questing and if I ever see a red name its immediate attack regardless of how many friends/allies they have around. I’ve just never been in a game that really supported (DaoC may have idk) that type of WPvP. It has always been get ganked 5v1, gather a couple allies, kill the gankers or can’t find the gankers cause they have run away to find more easy prey.
I do like in RIFT how if you venture into enemy territory and get killed with no one around to rez you and soul walk is down - you are put in a graveyard back in your territory with a long walk ahead of you. A nice risk for diving so deep into enemy territory.
Another thing that would help WPvP alot is if levels didn’t matter that much if at all. In WoW a level 85 can kill an infinite number of level 40s etc. If venturing into “lowbie” territory was always a risk I would have alot more respect for it.
Lum
2031
Because making enough unique content for 3 games instead of 2 will either make said content thin as gruel, utterly generic, hideously expensive to produce, or all of the above!
My take on DAOC’s success re: RvR (and please don’t take this as in any way official, I haven’t been associated with Mythic for going on 6 years now and write this from the standpoint of someone who played entirely too much RvR, and yes, Midgard hates you) -
Good:
- three sides making meta-gaming interesting
- relatively painless path to level cap (relatively - the competition at launch was EQ, not WoW)
- battlegrounds system allowed players to lean PvP quickly and earn rewards
- client able to handle epic-scale battles with a minimum of barfing
- epic-scale battles encouraged pick-up players to join in
- bonuses for territorial control were meaningful but usually not prohibitive
Bad:
- poorly-thought out expansion made path to level cap much more painful, added overpowered equipment in PvP that required painful PvE raids and added grinding for pants (I’m sorry, I actually wrote the code to grind your pants, my bad)
- as game aged, focus of players moved from epic-scale battles to small ‘gank groups’ of very highly skilled players that were far less inclusive
- as game aged, population imbalance would become so overpowering on some servers that the three-sided nature of the conflict became meaningless as one side could take on the other two handily
- unique classes for each side ensured constant grass-is-greener kvetching from hardcore players on which side had flavor of the month imbalances
- stupendous number of classes in the game ensured that some had flavor of the month imbalances
I had hopes for RIFT being able to satisfy that PvE/Solo MMO itch but I guess they’re going for the PvP crowd a bit too much for that.
There is a LOT of PvE/Solo MMO in the game for you to scratch. It is a game with PvP. Not a game centered on PvP. Most of the shards are designated PvE on the listing.
I’m beginning to notice that Rift’s macro system is a serious weakness of the game. The biggest problem is that most classes can create macros that you just press over & over that cast your spells in the appropriate priority. My cleric is literally a 4-button whirlwind of death: one button for single target attacks, one button for shields, one button for healing, and one button for multi-target attacks. That’s pretty much it. Same thing for my mage. My rogue is a little more complicated, though, so that’s something.
Also, although the “one action per button press” makes a lot of sense, it makes a lot of “Oh shit” buttons that tanking & healing rely on much less effective.
Yep. Very much agreed.
- battlegrounds system allowed players to lean PvP quickly and earn rewards
I’m not sure this mattered much, honestly. RvR was thriving even before these were added (around the time of Shrouded Isles, IIRC). They were fun, and Thidranki in particular made for interesting game-within-a-game stuff for twinked-out dedicated alts and such, but were they really a big part of the overall RvR success? I don’t think so. That said, their modern counterparts in WAR and Rift seem to counter that to a certain extent, and are a much more integral part of the overall game experience while leveling up.
- client able to handle epic-scale battles with a minimum of barfing
- epic-scale battles encouraged pick-up players to join in
- bonuses for territorial control were meaningful but usually not prohibitive
A thousand times “yes.” This combined with the three-way faction breakdown made for ongoing compelling emergent gameplay that has yet to be replicated. Fantastic stuff.
Bad:
- poorly-thought out expansion made path to level cap much more painful, added overpowered equipment in PvP that required painful PvE raids and added grinding for pants (I’m sorry, I actually wrote the code to grind your pants, my bad)
In the context of this discussion, I don’t know that the Trials of Atlantis stuff is all that relevant beyond an anecdote of how to screw up something awesome by fundamentally misunderstanding what the playerbase found fun in the game in the first place. In contrast, Shrouded Isles was excellent.
That said, with regards to the pants grinding, it wouldn’t have been nearly as bad if it weren’t for the chafing. Dude, seriously. Ow.
- as game aged, focus of players moved from epic-scale battles to small ‘gank groups’ of very highly skilled players that were far less inclusive
Perhaps it’s a matter of scale and experiences could easily have differed from server to server, but at least on Pellinor, gank squads were part of the landscape even pretty early on and were a plus, not a minus, to the whole experience. They were an “also” not an “instead of” to the whole thing. The zerg v. zerg mass RvR was always present, and provided great entertainment with keep taking, relic raids and plenty of mindless clashes of armies running together with little or no though to the point beyond “If it’s red, it’s dead! RAWR!!!” Gank squads were the special forces units roaming around the periphery of the big masses, making life move interesting for all concerned. I did a lot of RvR, both as a part of the zerg and in gank squads of varying skill levels. It was all hella fun. Just different. That variety of experience was a huge plus, and part of what kept me coming back for so long compared to the more constrained options available in todays MMO PvP which is usually boiled down to whether you’re running in a pre-made or not for battlegrounds/warfronts/nom-de-jour.
- as game aged, population imbalance would become so overpowering on some servers that the three-sided nature of the conflict became meaningless as one side could take on the other two handily
- unique classes for each side ensured constant grass-is-greener kvetching from hardcore players on which side had flavor of the month imbalances
- stupendous number of classes in the game ensured that some had flavor of the month imbalances
All very true.
edit: woah. holy wall o’ text, batman. yeesh.
Athryn
2036
Something that I’d add under the good that I think a lot of people overlook: the ability for guilds to form alliances. That helped foster a sense of community amongst realms instead of having guilds compete against each other. It also allowed guilds with different rulesets and priorities to band together in a common cause.
Can anyone recommend a good social guild to join and which server and side? I’ve been playing solo on a PvP server but it would be nice to be part of a guild. I am playing Rift very casually though and mostly log in during LOTRO downtime.
The game is 35$ on Greenmangaming, digital copy:
http://www.greenmangaming.com/games/rift/
How does that work? Is it like steam where you simply get a code that you can add to your game account at Trion?
That’s a good deal by the way, it’s 24.99 €for us europians which is slightly cheaper then the £22.57 amazon.co.uk wants.
