Viewpoint. As in, the context of how someone sees it based on what they grew up with. I’m much more inclined to sci-fi, so I’m seeing more sci-fi elements than fantasy, as such I’m not seeing the fantasy connection. Some say Star Wars created a new sub-genre of Science Fantasy, and I’ll agree on that.

Not the way I see them. The crystals needed for them, ok. But technology behind them used to focus the light? Sci-Fi. Otherwise it’s not something you can easily explain as being a fantasy element, so I would say it’s another thing in the SW universe that straddles the lines between Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

Surely you mean sufficiently advanced?

No.

Then you fail.

Surely you mean That is why you fail.

I’ve already made a reference to Clarke’s Three Laws up-thread, and my point in the above comment is not to do so. To me, they are not sufficiently advanced enough to be indistinguishable from magic. :)

I wish I had made this post.

This is unfortunately a distinction that’s no longer made, but it’s a traditional literary definition of Science Fiction. Science Fiction should explore the nature of humanity via its relationship with technology. Star Wars explores neither of those things. Even something as adventure-y as the original Star Trek series explicitly dealt with issues of human nature: most notably of course, what it means to be human, but also Roddenberry’s egalitarian and communist-y vision of the future.

This is a little bit easier to see with early sci-fi, where the modern genre conventions of settings, etc. hadn’t yet been established. It’s also why stories like “Never Let Me Go” can easily be categorized as sci-fi despite the lack of explicit futuristic elements, the technologies it’s exploring are organ transplantation and (possibly) cloning. I’ve been reading the complete works of Theodore Sturgeon recently, and one of the forewords to those collections has an interesting summary of this split. (Which I’ll re-quote below, if you’ll indulge me).

One, near-future science fiction, posits a familiar landscape, familiar social patterns, and familiar social surfaces. Into it the author intrudes on or a limited number of marvels. The game is to explore the resultant alteration in behavior. The other form, far-future science fiction, begins the game with a landscape where behavior patters, social texture, and societal workings are already highly altered. Here, as the test proceeds, the game is to recognize which patterns of behavior - or in the more sophisticated versions of this form, which abstracts of these behavior patterns - remain constant despite material reorganization

The lasers vs. swords distinction accompanied the ossification of genre rules in fantasy (Tolkien) and SF (Star Trek). This shorthand of future vs. past is any easy way to classify things for, say, book store shelves, but it doesn’t account for a large number of edge cases.

I admit that the exploration of how people deal with technology is topic that particularly interests me, so you’ll have to excuse me if I’m being tedious.

To be more on-topic:

But the technology behind focusing the light isn’t addressed by, or in any direct way important to, the story. It’s a little like categorizing Lord of The Rings as masonry-fiction because there are all those castle sieges, and there’s some technology behind holding the castles together.

“There’s a crystal and it focuses light” is kind of nonsensical anyway; I’m not sure why Rumpy thinks that that somehow makes a lightsaber a science fiction element rather than a science fantasy one. Personally I find the need to fabricate some kind of hard science explanation for things in Star Wars annoying. Describing it as ‘science fantasy’ in no way undermines it - nor should it be taken as a criticism.

I try to remember to watch the Saturday morning replays of Clone Wars. It is pretty dang fun! And if you look closely you can hear echoes of the banter and camaraderie that made Episodes IV-VI. I think every other episode, and I don’t mean this in a bad way, has someone saying “I’ve got a bad feeling about this.” It’s like they took the setting of Episodes I-III, complete with the fairly complex politics and characters, and then just doused it in the soul of Han Solo. His lines are constantly popping up in the mouths of different characters. And, oddly enough, it works.

You’ve done a man’s job sir.

I don’t really see it as a question of viewpoint. Star Wars fails to meet the definition of science fiction in every way unless your definition of science fiction is simply “There are spaceships.”

Not the way I see them. The crystals needed for them, ok. But technology behind them used to focus the light? Sci-Fi. Otherwise it’s not something you can easily explain as being a fantasy element, so I would say it’s another thing in the SW universe that straddles the lines between Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

And you’d be wrong. They’re magic swords. How they work is utterly irrelevant to the story and the plot, and the films never make even a rudimentary attempt to explain them. They are symbolic devices that break several laws of physics and make zero sense from a scientific point of view. Lightsabers exist because lightsabers are cool, and that is all. Not a lick of science fiction to them whatsoever.

You could say the same thing about most FTL drives. So those aren’t science fiction either?

The distinction - if you want to draw it - is usually on how hard they break it.

Mass Effect is actually plausible. It’s not bloody likely, but it at least attempts to use existing physics to explain itself (specifically, it attributes observed dark energy to their magical material that changes the apparent mass of stuff when you pass current through it).

Battlestar Galactica (the new one) didn’t try very hard - it’s just a thing that spins and then you push a button and you’re in a different place than where you were before, but because it’s more of a wormhole generator and less of an FTL device (jumps, rather than transit time), it’s still at least at a point where Michio Kaku would tell you that it could theoretically happen, maybe.

Star Trek used to be plausible, before we conclusively and firmly disproved any kind of warp field theory. Essentially, they got around the FTL problem by submitting that the object itself was not moving faster than light, but space in front of and behind the object was being expanded or contracted in such a way as to affect faster than light travel through conventional space. They actually had physics dudes worry about this for them at the time.

The Gap Cycle is somewhere between Battlestar and Trek and serves to exemplify most FTL in fiction these days, which posits the existence of a “sub-space layer” where you can draw a straighter line than straight in normal Euclidian geometry, so you can go faster than fast. This is almost definitely not the case.

Hyperspace, from Star Wars, is a loosely defined catch-all for “a thing what goes all fast.” It has transit time, like Warp Theory, and it moves through conventional space, as evidenced by the fact that gravity wells and the artificial generation thereof are very real concerns (though I don’t remember seeing an Interdictor in the films, so that might be an invention of the EU authors). As far as I know, nobody could ever be assed to even try to define what was happening in hyperspace, which is a good thing, because even in the seventies, physics was advanced to the point where we knew that this was not a particularly plausible proposition.

It’s this kind of complication that leads people to want to draw the genre distinction more on the basis of subject matter than plausibility, because an awful lot of what we would think of as science fiction involves traveling between stars, which most physics will tell you is right out. I would note, however, that Star Trek, The Gap Cycle, and Mass Effect were all at least plausible on the surface at the time they were written. Star Wars was not and wasn’t trying to be, which is where I put the line.

Dude… it was a rhetorical question. No need for the wall of text. Of course FTL drives are a part of science fiction, plausible or not.

In any case, real-physics plausibility is the domain of “hard” SF. In soft SF, the benchmark is merely internal consistency.

It depends on how they’re used, but in my opinion, it’s entirely possible to write a story that includes Faster than Light drives that isn’t science fiction in any meaningful way. It might be space-fiction, but I don’t think it qualifies as science fiction unless the technology itself is integral to the plot, rather than simply a way to get from A to B.

That may seem like an overly restrictive definition of science fiction, but there are slightly weasel-y ways around that to make it generally correspond with the popular conception of what a science fiction story is. For example, if point B is a completely alien world, then you can plausibly say that without an FTL drive, the experiences of encountering that alien world would’ve have been possible.

It’s not important that they try to be explained, though. They aren’t powered by the Force. They’re clearly electronic gizmos. And what laws of Physics do they break? The one thing I can think of is deflecting laser beams, except the blaster fire in Star Wars clearly moves too slowly to be light. They’re obviously superheated slugs. :)

Really, really slow super-heated slugs. Musket balls travel faster.

Yep. :) Definitely not lasers. :)

Really? You’re asking this? Okay, here’s two things to consider before attempting to wield your own real-life lightsaber:

  1. Why does the light just stop at a point 2 1/2 feet above the emitter? This is flatly impossible without something physically there to redirect the energy.

  2. Consider the immense amount of energy required to project a beam powerful enough to melt durasteel (whatever that is), sever limbs in one slice with instant cauterization, etc. Now explain why the immediate area around a lightsaber isn’t the temperature of a small star. And don’t give me some crap about them not bleeding off energy, because they give off colored glows that affect their surroundings (or at least they have for the last 15 years or so).

Fuckin’ lightsabers, how do they work? Miracles.