Well, a committed Christian would likely believe that heaven is better than life on earth. But I also think they believe abortion violates the sixth commandment.
I donât what you mean by âcommittedâ Christian, but if all the anti-choice group isnât going to care what she says because I donât think they believe there are fates worse than death. If they did, their logic would implode.
I meant a sincere one who actually believes in the doctrines of their faith.* Such a person presumably thinks heaven is more pleasant than an earthly existence. That doesnât mean, I hasten to add, that they think itâs okay to kill someone to put them in heaven, because that would violate a separate part of Christian doctrine, i.e., the sixth commandment.
Quite separately, for all I know some might believe that an aborted, therefore unbaptized, fetus might actually be condemned to hell. If oneâs theology tends that way, it would make the fight against abortion all the more urgent. Iâm not sure if anyone actually holds that belief, though.
** Iâm speculating here, as I am not a Christian myself. But I have seen the sentiment reflected in literature, such as:
Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou thinkâst thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soulâs delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swellâst thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
Although Catholics donât know for sure, some think that itâs a distinct possibility. And this indeed further motivates their opposition to abortion.
That also means there would be a shitload of miscarried babies burning in hell too.
Itâs all part of Godâs plan.
Yes, possibly. But there is no burning in the modern Catholic hell. Just separation and loneliness. Sort of like the various AI hells in Black Mirror.
If you are a Christian, at least from the major versions of Christianity, then of cours you believe heaven is perfection, but even the stories showcase key persons, say Samson, asked for god to give him the strength he needed to end his enemies, and he also ended himself. I donât recall the part where he said now that I am blind and weak and a slave I should just live out my life in misery.
Anti-choice is that, exactly a choice, and all I am saying is I am not sure the anti-choice group actually believes that an living in existence could be so miserable and so wretched that it is best avoided.
You donât have to be committed to be a Christian. You just have to have faith and belief. I am sure the Evangelicals would call themselves committed but they are not more Christian than other Christians simply because they say so and their leaders are on TV.
Right, but add to that analogy that 1) the officials told you the rabbi could âvisitâ you without mentioning that they actually meant âfrom the other side of a bulletproof glass partition that makes it impossible for him to perform the brisâ, and 2) you found out about that two weeks before, not the same day, and 3) you made the request 10 days before, not the day of, and 4) a duly constituted panel decided that you might be in the right and wanted to consider it, and 5) 5 other people decided to overrule them when it wasnât necessary for them to do that.
I mean, those do seem to be the actual facts in the case, right?
Well, thatâs the question isnât it. Was it reasonable for a prisoner to assume that his visitor would be allowed in the chamber? The district court heard the most testimony and thought it wasnât reasonable. The Eleventh disagreed, and the SCOTUS sided with the district court.
Whoâs right? I really donât know enough about prison life to be certain, but itâs not obviously reasonable to me. I have worked in other government settings enough to know that getting a third party access to a secure area is often going to take a lot of effort and planning, and bureaucrats are notoriously inflexible.
Youâre putting the burden on the state, but thatâs not where it lay. The burden was on Ray to demonstrate that his argument very likely to prevail, not just âmight be rightâ or âworth considering.â The default was to proceed with execution, and the SCOTUS decided that overruling the initial decision was not necessary.
Was that the question? Iâm losing track here of what was the question. It sounds like everyone agrees that if the prisoner found out about the issue on the 23rd of January and raised the issue in the 28th of January, then thatâs not an unreasonable delay and wouldnât constitute an unreasonable last minute objection, and you have to actually assume negligence prior to that date on the prisonerâs part to get to a conclusion that it was an unreasonable last minute objection. ThatâsâŚspecial.
Edit: Even the conservative National Review dissents.
Because it doesnât matter when Ray found out. What matters is what a reasonable person would have done.
If I find out on May 10 that I was supposed to file my tax return by April 15, I am SOL.
And yes, the initial court decided that someone who waits years before making the necessary inquiries must not be genuinely interested in the process.
Ray argued that the state didnât even have a firm policy until after he raised the issue. The state disagrees.
Who is right? I donât know, but itâs not obviously Ray.
âŚand that only people who demonstrate what you think is âgenuine interest in the processâ have rights. Thatâs a shit ruling.
Thatâs my paraphrase, not the courtâs language:
Let me also point out that the notion that one should be able to ignore filing deadlines if they have a really strong case is⌠special.
Your citation just confirms what I said: That the lower court ignored when Ray learned that his imam would not be permitted, and decided instead that he should have learned earlier, and that because he didnât learn earlier, his religious freedom claim neednât be treated as sincere.
Here is the SCOTUS majority in Masterpiece:
In this country, the place of secular officials isnât to sit in judgment of religious beliefs, but only to protect their free exercise,
Despite my poor paraphrasing, the court did not judge Rayâs âsincerityâ. It judged whether he was âreasonableâ. Because the standard is always what a âreasonable personâ would have done, not what actually happened.
If you are served a lawsuit but donât actually read the summons, you might miss your court date. And therefore lose the lawsuit. At that point no court will listen to your defense, even if it has a rock-solid basis on your fundamental rights. Itâs too late. And no court will care if you didnât know your court date, because the papers were literally in your hands and you should have known.
Sure, but thatâs a terrible analogy to this case. Ray was given information that led him to believe his Imam would be permitted, because the information the prison provided didnât clearly distinguish between in the chamber and in the audience. Youâre basically arguing that I should be scouring the legal databases and filings every day to see if I have been served a subpoena that has somehow gotten lost, and that if I donât do that, itâs on me.
We can agree to disagree, but thereâs really no doubt that SCOTUS could have kept this whole thing at arms length and let the 11th circuit here the argument on Rayâs rights. Even conservatives are arguing that point. Basically the court determined that the stateâs procedures and rules trumped his rights without ever hearing the case.
The reality is though, this guy was likely not actually a devout Muslim. So the effect of the decision likely didnât actually have a significant impact, beyond not delaying his execution for a horrific crime.
Iâm pretty sure that SCOTUS has similarly opined that it isnât their place to decide if someoneâs avowed beliefs are sincere or not.
Alabamaâs laws / rules are transparently biased in favor of Christians. Why isnât that a matter worthy of review by the 11th circuit? Why cut off that review to expedite an execution that not even Ray was fighting any more?
No, Iâm arguing that if he had made the same request sooner, he would have succeeded.
Is it reasonable to wait until the last minute to make a request from an administrator, particularly if youâve never filed it before and are not well-versed in the bureacracy? I donât think so. Even for something as mundane as a passport, Iâm sure not going to wait until the last possible minute to file an application. And if I did that and there were a misunderstanding (eg application rejected because the photo did not meet requirements) then I would accept the blame.