SCOTUS under Trump

[magnet]

He wrote that Congress does not have the power to subpoena private records for the purpose of informing legislation, they can only do so if they are conducting an investigation (eg impeachment). And in this case, Congress asked for the tax returns in order to consider legislation.

[strummer]

@Ginger_Yellow

This is why I’m relatively relaxed about Alito being replaced by Trump. Although it’s possible to conceive of a worse jurist in principle, I struggle to think of a single decision where that would have made a difference to the actual vote.

That is true, but the problem is, of course, that a 70-yr old would be replaced by a 50 yr old; theoretically giving the court an additional 20 yrs of the “worst jurist in principle”.

[Ginger_Yellow]

True, but I don’t think of him as particularly old/infirm by Supreme Court standards, so there’s no real reason to think he wouldn’t be replaced by a GOP president after Biden, thus perpetuating the “as bad as Alito” line even longer. It’s not like RBG where we’re all just willing her to hold on a bit longer. I suppose there’s less chance that a future GOP president would nominate Jared, though.

[MikeOberly]

Ted Cruz shitting the bed on twitter…just another Thursday.

Ted Cruz (tedcruz)

[milo]

@Ginger_Yellow

@triggercut

@jpinard

So the two dissenting. It’s obvious they have no care for the actual rule of law unless it helps Republicans. Shouldn’t people that have no hint of neutrality be removed from the bench?

About that, and I’ll go to the Ken White well yet again:

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1281230126508699649?s=20

This is why I’m relatively relaxed about Alito being replaced by Trump. Although it’s possible to conceive of a worse jurist in principle, I struggle to think of a single decision where that would have made a difference to the actual vote.

Imagine an opinion written by Eric Trump.

[CraigM]

I try to imagine it, but it is drowned out by internal screaming.

[Telefrog]

Shiiiiiit. I hope Manhattan is next. That would be amazing.

[ShivaX]

@triggercut

I think (but I don’t know, you’d have to ask Ken himself) that he bases that thinking off Thomas being essentially a bland, rubber stamp to the conservative wing of the court who never actually does anything except be evil in that sort of bland, vile, passive way.

More or less, but the thing is Thomas does occasionally buck the conservative position.
It’s pretty fucking rare, but he does have an ideology that he sometimes follows.
And I say that as someone who hates him with a passion. I think his ideology is garbage and he applies it when he feels like it.

@triggercut

Alito, on the other hand, goes out of his way to write terrible opinions and just generally be actively trying to be the devil incarnate.

Alito is a full on authoritarian. Like, nothing the government does is ever wrong, unless it’s something that doesn’t give the government more power. If a cop busts into your house without a warrant, kills your wife and rapes your dog Alito will have his back on it somehow. Every single time.

[CF_Kane]

@Timex

The fact that these are now tribal lands though, has some…immense implications.
But I’m just gonna point out one:

Do American Indians and Alaska Natives pay taxes?

Yes. They pay the same taxes as other citizens with the following exceptions:

• Federal income taxes are not levied on income from trust lands held for them by the U.S.
• State income taxes are not paid on income earned on a federal Indian reservation.
• State sales taxes are not paid by Indians on transactions made on a federal Indian reservation.
• Local property taxes are not paid on reservation or trust land.

That, alone, seems like it’s going to be huge. It seems like half of Oklahoma doesn’t need to pay taxes to anyone other than the Tribes.

That isn’t what that says. It says they don’t pay state and local taxes, and they don’t pay federal taxes on income derived from lands held in public trust by the United States.

They don’t pay state and local taxes because they administer their own tribal governments, to whom they pay taxes.

They still have to pay income taxes to the Federal Government.

[Timex]

@CF_Kane

They still have to pay income taxes to the Federal Government.

Oh, that land isn’t considered trust land held for them by the government? I honestly didn’t know what that means. What would be an example of that kind of land?

Separate from that though, this DOES mean that the state of Oklahoma can’t collect taxes in half of it’s current region, doesn’t it?

[strategy]

Positively surprised by Kavanaugh. While I am not a fan of Gorsuch, at least he seems like a person who has some measure of integrity. I had fully expected Kavanaugh to lick his master’s boots in the tax returns cases - must have come as an infuriating and unexpected surprise for Trump to see both him and Gorsuch rule against him on this.

[RichVR]

I get the feeling that these judges see themselves as being around long after Trump is gone. Why tarnish their future history? Be above the political scrum. Does that make sense?

[tfernando]

@Timex

this DOES mean that the state of Oklahoma can’t collect taxes in half of it’s current region, doesn’t it?

Not a lawyer, but I read the opinion as narrow… There’s a short section where Gorsuch talks about civil and criminal procedure having different antecedants, and I think the holding is that for the purposes of the Major Crimes Act, Indian Country constitutes the original boundaries as defined by the 1866 treaty. I don’t think this affects taxation at all, but it might end up doing so following a subsequent ruling that uses the same reasoning.

[CF_Kane]

@Timex

Oh, that land isn’t considered trust land held for them by the government? I honestly didn’t know what that means. What would be an example of that kind of land?

The real limitation on the exemption isn’t the trust land itself, but the fact that the income has to come “from trust lands.” To come “from trust lands,” the income needs to be derived directly from trust land, which primarily means income from logging, mining, farming, or ranching activities.

@Timex

Separate from that though, this DOES mean that the state of Oklahoma can’t collect taxes in half of it’s current region, doesn’t it?

If the conclusion is that all of the land in question is a reservation, then yes. Of course, if it is all a reservation the tribes likely have sovereignty over the land, which means that the State of Oklahoma is also unlikely to be providing any services.

Obligatory statement: I am a lawyer, but not an expert in tax law. If you have an actual tax question regarding this or any other tax issue, you should consult a tax professional.

[Timex]

@CF_Kane

The real limitation on the exemption isn’t the trust land itself, but the fact that the income has to come “from trust lands.” To come “from trust lands,” the income needs to be derived directly from trust land, which primarily means income from logging, mining, farming, or ranching activities.

Ah, so not from operating businesses on the land?

@CF_Kane

Of course, if it is all a reservation the tribes likely have sovereignty over the land, which means that the State of Oklahoma is also unlikely to be providing any services.

No doubt. So they could potentially work out a deal with the state (some tribes in Minnesota do this), but it’s still interesting that they could choose to just administer half of Oklahoma and ignore Oklahoma’s state government if they want.

@CF_Kane

If the conclusion is that all of the land in question is a reservation, then yes.

I believe that this is the implication, and the meaning of Gorsuch’s statement.

[CF_Kane]

@Timex

Ah, so not from operating businesses on the land?

Income derived from businesses get taxed. The tax status of wholly owned tribal businesses are complicated, but the income that (non-corporate) people derive from them is taxed as ordinary income.

This report from the Joint Committee on Taxation prepared for the Senate Finance Committee is a decent summary. It is a little dated, but I don’t think there have been any meaningful changes since this report was made, at least for the purposes of this thread.

http://www.jct.gov/x-61-08.pdf

[Timex]

Tl;dr

Nah, just kidding, thanks dude.

[CF_Kane]

@Timex

Tl;dr

Nah, just kidding, thanks dude.

Tl;dr is generally the right approach to tax law.

[Timex]

I’m super interested in the idea of the Oklahoma State government potentially losing half of it’s tax revenue though.

[CraigM]

Nah, more like 1/4 at most since some crazy % (around 40?) of their state budget and funding is federal.