I guess because anti-abortion isn’t all that popular outside the hardore evangelical and catholic circles, and feel they have to have some sort of fig leaf there?

Realistically though. Roe died with Ginsburg. I know she hasn’t been confirmed yet, but it’ll take an act of god - or maybe an extreme act of covid - to prevent McConnell from ramming her through.

The real question to ask is whether the supreme court will try to turn overturning it into a nationwide ban on abortion, and what they’ll do when some chucklefucks in Alabama pass a law that prohibits women from getting contraceptives without their husband’s consent.

This doesn’t look like a case which challenged the death penalty itself.

I dont think I claimed it did. It’s a case on staying an execution or not which goes right to her judicial judgment on the death penalty and her faith. I thought that was the original question brought up by Dtolman.

If the death penalty itself wasn’t at issue, the case doesn’t go to her judicial judgment or her faith on the death penalty. I don’t doubt that Barrett would uphold the death penalty — that’s what conservative Catholic justices do! — but this case doesn’t tell us anything about that.

You should read her article.

I have read it.

The article is really about whether judges can recuse themselves from capital cases more than about defending or advocating ending the death penalty from a Catholic perspective.

Here are some quotes:

Saying that essentially picking and choosing isn’t really consistent with Catholic doctrine and being a Catholic in good standing.

Thus far we have been talking about the behavior of orthodox
Catholics in capital cases. But when people make sociological claims
about who is a Catholic, or what Catholics think and do, they do not
confine their attention to the orthodox. One often reads in the popular
press about how many Catholics dissent from the Church’s teaching
about contraception, abortion, divorce, homosexuality, or the ordination
of women." Some Catholics draw a more general conclusion from
these particulars-that the Church’s teaching is advisory rather than
authoritative. Members are well-advised to consider it, but in the end
they are free to accept or reject it. This attitude about teaching is linked
to another about membership-that it is a matter of voluntary association. An individual is a Catholic in good standing if he says so. These
attitudes about teaching and membership conflict with the Church’s traditional understanding of itself, but they fit well with the American way
of thinking about religion as a free and democratic kind of enterprise.
Envisioning Catholicism in this way severs the link between Church
membership and belief about the death penalty. If the reasonable ob164. We rejected this assertion earlier in the text. See supra notes 20-35 and accompanying text. But we left open the possibility of showing that the death penalty is an effective
deterrent in these cases, and that there are no equally effective alternatives.
165. Kenneth Woodward, Mixed Blessings, NEWSWEEK, Aug. 16, 1993, at 38; Andrew
M. Greeley, The Abortion Debate and the Catholic Subculture, 167 AMERICA 13 (July 4-11,
1992). On the death penalty in particular, see Robert F. Drinan, Catholics and the Death
Penalty, 170 AMERICA 13 (June 18-25, 1994).
1998]
MARQUETTE LAW REVIEW
server of § 455(a) holds this picture of the Catholic judge, it is hard to
say why he should think that being Catholic affects his impartiality.

Our final observation about the first point is that many judges-even
some who would regard themselves as orthodox Catholics-when faced
with a conflict between moral and legal duties, see themselves as bound
to enforce the law. Part of the explanation for this is that the morallegal distinction is not as clear as we might wish. As Robert Cover put
it, “the moral-[legal] decision [is actually] a moral-moral decision-a decision between the substantive moral propositions relating to [life and
the death penalty] and the moral ends served by the [legal] structure as
a whole, by fidelity to it.”’ 68 There is a significant moral dimension to
the legal structure created by our constitution. That system empowers
Congress to define our corporate objectives, directs judges to enforce
them, and sets limits on the power of judges to change our course. It
would betray a public trust and undermine this system if judges who
flatly opposed capital punishment were to cheat-to take charge of sentencing hearings and manipulate the law and evidence in order to save
166. 527 F. Supp. 632 (N.D. Ill. 1981).
167. Id. at 633.
168. COVER, supra note 158, at 199.
[Vol. 81:303
CATHOLIC JUDGES IN CAPITAL CASES
lives. Some judges see a positive as well as a negative side to this role
responsibility-a duty to do one’s job, not just to refrain from undercutting it. This is the position Governor Mario Cuomo took in defending
his decision to allow abortion in the state of New York.
[T]he Catholic who holds political office in a pluralistic democracy… bears special responsibility. He or she undertakes to
help create conditions under which all can live with a maximum
of dignity and with a reasonable degree of freedom; where everyone who chooses may hold beliefs different from specifically
Catholic ones, sometimes contradictory to them[.]
In fact, Catholic public officials take an oath to preserve the
Constitution that guarantees this freedom… [T]o assure our
freedom we must allow others the same freedom, even if occasionally it produces conduct… which we would hold to be sinful.
16 9
Justice Brennan took a similar position during his confirmation hearings
in 1957, when he was asked whether he could abide by his oath in cases
where “matters of faith and morals” got mixed with “matters of law and
justice.” He said:
Senator, [I took my] oath just as unreservedly as I know you
did… And… there isn’t any obligation of our faith superior to
that. [In my service on the Court] what shall control me is the
oath that I took to support the Constitution and laws of the
United States and [I shall] so act upon the cases that come before
me for decision that it is that oath and that alone which govems. 17
0
We do not defend this position as the proper response for a Catholic
judge to take with respect to abortion or the death penalty. We mention
it here for a different reason. The question in a disqualification motion
under § 455(a) is whether a reasonable observer would expect a Catholic judge, simply by virtue of membership in the Catholic Church, to be
unalterably opposed to capital punishment. It is a sociological observation, not a moral conclusion. And as a sociological observation about
judges who are Catholics it is, for the reasons we have noted, unfortunately inaccurate.

III. CONCLUSION
Catholic judges must answer some complex moral and legal questions in deciding whether to sit in death penalty cases. Sometimes (as
with direct appeals of death sentences) the right answers are not obvious. But in a system that effectively leaves the decision up to the judge,
these are questions that responsible Catholics must consider seriously.
Judges cannot-nor should they try to-align our legal system with the
Church’s moral teaching whenever the two diverge. They should, however, conform their own behavior to the Church’s standard. Perhaps
their good example will have some effect

Basically she says, in a not particularly forceful way, that it is possible to conceive of capital cases that align with Catholic doctrine, though they are few and require inner knowledge of the “will” of the criminal. Abortion she elides as being against “innocent” life, and therefore prohibited in all cases and is against Church doctrine in all circumstances; criminal behavior must be circumscribed to circumstances that require killing the assailant in order to save life.

If you’re sifting through the tea leaves, her perspective seems to be that her rulings need to conform to Church doctrines as far as possible, but not be required to do so when the secular law’s requirements are outside of the purview of Catholic teaching. More strictly, she seems to say that secularizing judges that are Catholic, ie, pro-choice judges, would by her standard not be considered Catholic in good standing but by self identification only.

To clarify this from the doctrinal side, contemporary Catholic teaching on the death penalty is that any modernized society is capable enough of preventing a convicted murderer from murdering again (i.e., prison systems are advanced enough to ensure imprisonment for life) so there is no licit use for the death penalty. It is only appropriate in societies that do not have the infrastructure to securely hold a deadly criminal indefinitely.

Although that was Pope John Paul’s formulation. Francis has been not-so-subtly pushing things in the direction of less conditional language. In his new epistle, he says

Today we state clearly that “the death penalty is inadmissible” and the Church is firmly committed to calling for its abolition worldwide.

As far as ACB’s paper, assuming she still believes it, you’d think it’s possible that this line…

Judges cannot-nor should they try to-align our legal system with the Church’s moral teaching whenever the two diverge.

…would at least partly ease the minds of her liberal opponents. Though I doubt it will.

Certainly, they can bitch and moan all they want, but that’s not going to win them anything.

And certainly, packing the court is legal. That’s not really in question.

However, if we agree that there are other more structural changes to the court, which would be more beneficial long-term than simply packing it, then you may be able to come to an agreement that would get you that, using your threat of packing the court as leverage.

That’s the thing, if the Democrats can take both houses and the Presidency, they have leverage.

On one hand, you can simply do what you want within the confines of that power. If all you want to do is things that you can pass with a majority, and once you boot the filibuster, that’s a lot, then you do not need the GOP’s permission, and you should not bother trying to get it.

However, what you COULD do, using that power as leverage, is actually try to push forward constitutional amendments that will create permanent, lasting, structural change to government.

To do that, you WILL need the GOP support.

You won’t get their support through cordial means. However, you may be able to get it by using leverage.

I actually read the journal article linked and it is indeed interesting and informative.

Seems this is a thing that does happen, and Georgia in particular was a particularly bold partisan move.

Perhaps, but let’s remember the last time democrats had control of all branches, 2008 after Obama was elected, and he tried to work with the GOP, spending considerable time being strung along, then stonewalled, and lost the chance to get a whole lot more done.

I don’t think the loss of time trying to get the GOP on board with anything bipartisan is worthwhile. They have clearly shown us how they play that game, to the detriment of the country. It’s Democratic action time, with the law and the will of the majority of the people behind them, as is proper in a democracy.

This, plus there is no way McConnell could force state legislatures in red states to honor any deal you made. Even if he agreed, he’d be doing it knowing your amendments were all doomed.

This is a legitimate position.

I’m all for it too but it seems tricky when Joe is explicitly running on bipartisan cooperation.

He’s allowed to change his mind. And he should.

Joe has spent his entire career proving his is very much bipartisan, but if the GOP won’t playball, they won’t playball. He can give them five minutes, tops, and then walk away, and it doesn’t change the fact that he has been bipartisan.

He’s not going to be the problem. He just needs to realize right away he can’t fix the problem, and move on.

I was thinking a day but I like your plan better!

If and when Joe wins, every Republican senator gets one of these at his inauguration.

Here’s hoping. Considering he saw what they did with Obama first hand, this is a fairly realistic scenario.

Yeah, he was in the thick of it then. He has to work differently this time around.

If you’re going to seat 2, seat 4. You’ll get the same blowback.

This is about passing a new VRA and saving the ACA, you can’t play nice with Nazis.

The only option we have is to run out the clock on their stuff, and that makes doing everything to make sure we don’t get another Trump, even if we have to sink to their level.

Once you’ve screwed them hard enough that they can’t win, offer them an unscrew in exchange for constitutional amendments.