Yeah, I guess it depends on how you define “fun.” I’ve got a buddy who talks about the 3 types of fun. (He uses them for hiking excursions, but they’re broadly applicable.)
Type I fun is fun while you’re doing it: a roller coaster or being at a lively party with friends, etc. This is typically what people mean when they talk about fun.
Type II fun isn’t particularly enjoyable while you do it, but is fun when you think about it later or remember it and/or has moments of bliss: a tough hike, or grinding through a boss in a video game.
Type III fun is never fun, but is satisfying or presents an opportunity for growth in some way: running a marathon, or a particularly grueling hike, or reading War and Peace or whatever.
I love Type II fun. I kind of seek out that kind of activity. But, the problem is that after a hike I’m usually tired but elated. I feel worked out–improved in body and mind, even if there were moments during the hike when I was exhausted and wanted to quit. Playing a video game, though, never gives me that sense. I do, as you said, get a small sense of satisfaction from overcoming a difficult challenge. (Video games are usually very good and hitting up the skill-reward centers of our brains.) But aside from slightly stronger thumbs and maybe an incremental increase in reaction times, I’m not improved. My threshhold for frustration in video games is thus pretty low. (Also, despite being a lifelong gamer, I’m just not very good at them.)
Obviously there are different kind of highs. I can’t write off all games like that though. 90% of them feel like a waste of time afterwards. Beat ‘em ups satisfy me.
All this talk of the F word and we’re going to summon dark spirit Tom to invade our world.
I pretty much feel the same way. It’s become an existential thing for me, and looking into the void of “wasted” gameplay hours, I can’t come up with any satisfying justification. Gaming is a part of how I spend my leisure time. The best I can do is play games that offer me something other than an endless drip-feed reward system skinner box.
Playing, exploring, and beating Sekiro felt good in a way that grinding for apparel items in Division2 does not.
While I don’t think gaming is any less valid as a leisure activity than say binge-watching Game of Thrones or even reading, I do understand this sentiment of “wasted time”. I think that gets back to @Matt_W’s definitions of fun above, if something isn’t hitting one of those trigger points (if it’s not fun “fun”, not personally rewarding, or not so rarely challenging that it sets you apart) then I also quickly lose interest.
I don’t think Sekiro is enjoyable on a minute-to-minute basis, it’s too stressful and too difficult for that. I do however think it comes closest to that second definition, although I waved on whether or not I consider beating the game any kind of tangible progress. It’s certainly progress from the game’s perspective but I’m not sure I’ve gained anything in the end, which I guess is a criticism you could level at almost any game.
Yeah, I was careful to avoid talking about wasting time. I think video games are as legitimate an activity as anything else entertaining. I play and enjoy them quite a bit. I just am less willing to tolerate frustration and grind in them than in other activities because I see fewer tangible/persistent benefits. That’s all subjective though, and what doesn’t work for me may be great for other folks. The sense of completion you get from finally crushing a game after hours of trying is real and can be incredible.
Just to be clear because my post may have come off as ambiguous on this issue, but yeah, I don’t see gaming as less valid, far from it.
But having spent a lot of what I now see as wasted hours grinding in MMOs, and MMO-likes, I’m acutely aware of when I feel a game is offering me a worthwhile challenge, and when it’s abusing/using me.
I finally finished all the achievements. I don’t recommend it because the skill point gain takes so long. I had to turn on a Three Moves Ahead podcast and farm for a couple hours.
I also think I wore out my left bumper playing this game. It’s a refurb Xbox Elite controller. It still sort of works but I’ll have to decide whether to get another one or something else.
I think there’s a good chance the final boss is where I stop with this. Six hours on him now, and I’m still enjoying the fight, but the load times are just taking too much of a toll.
I can’t decide if I want to keep playing this. I think I enjoy it but I never feel like playing it. I’m at ashina castle (so still very early) if that helps. Is it going to get awesome soon, or is it always more of the same - intimidating and a little frustrating?
PS played all of the souls games (including Demon’s and Bloodborne). Don’t know why this isn’t grabbing me.
I’m now on hour 12 of battling Isshin, the Sword Saint and I’m occasionally making it to phase three now. It’s a credit to this game that I’m still not feeling frustrated.
If you don’t like the second to second gameplay, you probably won’t enjoy the rest of it. There is some great exploration, but most of the game is geared toward the combat and boss duels. I found the game awesome, pretty much every bit of it, because I loved the combat system and the world, and while the boss fights were tough (toughest of any souls game that I’ve played) they were all well crafted, cinematic as fuck, and worthy challenges.
But it’s a time sink, there is no doubt, and learning what the game is forcing you to learn can be tough.
But once you learn, you get to feel like an unstoppable ninja badass. Worth it, imo.
I agree with you. I spent the better part of two weeks, a few hours a night, trying to master that fight. I wish I could hop in and play it now I liked it so much. And the feeling at the end was pretty special.
