Shiny new PC, shiny new crashes

Hardware and technical stuff
1

Short version: My new PC with Vista 64-bit crashes regularly when running games. I’ve tried many things to stop the crashes, no success. Hardware or software? Help!

Long version: I recently got a new PC to better take advantage of all the whizzy new games coming out. I picked out the parts and then had a local shop assemble it. Picked it up, brought it home and, not surprisingly, many of the drivers were out of date. Updated everything, installed a few games and…the crashing began. Sometimes it’s just a game crash, sometimes it’s a BSOD, sometimes it’s a lockup with no error message at all. I have had three consecutive days without a crash since I brought the system home about a month ago. Every other day has seen one or more crashes.

I’ll list what I have, what (general) errors I’ve gotten, what I’ve done and then see if anyone might offer advice on how to get a functional, stable system running.

The system:

• Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Dual Core Processor LGA775 Conroe 3.0GHZ 1333FSB 4MB Retail
• ASUS P5N-E SLI Nforce 650I SLI LGA775 Conroe ATX 2PCI-E16 1PCI-E1 2PCI SATA2 Sound GBLAN Motherboard
• Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X2048-6400 2GB 2X1GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 5-5-5-18 240PIN DIMM Dual Channel Memory
• EVGA E-GEFORCE 8800GTX 575MHZ 768MB 1.8GHZ GDDR3 Dual DVI-I HDTV Out HDCP DIRECTX10 Video Card
• Antec P180 ATX Advanced Mid Tower Aluminum Case 4X5.25 1X3.5 6X3.5INT No PS W/ USB & Audio Ports
• Silverstone Strider ST60F 600W ATX12V 24PIN Modular Power Supply W/120MM Fan Active PFC
• Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB SATA2 3GB/S 7200RPM 16MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive
• Samsung SH-S183A Black SATA DVD+RW 18X8X16 DVD-RW 18X6X16 DL 8X INT DVD Writer OEM W/ SW
• Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Edition 64BIT DVD OEM
• Saitek Eclipse Keyboard Black USB W/ 104 Silver Key & Red LED Key Illumination
• Razer DeathAdder Gaming Mouse 5 Button 1800DPI Infrared Optical USB
• Creative Sound Blaster X-FI Xtreme Audio 24BIT Sound Card 7.1 PCI OEM

The errors have happened mainly in games but I have also had a BSOD when viewing a Divx file and have had three other BSODs at the desktop, one while doing nothing in particular, another when copying files from a Steam backup DVD and a third when I tried running the CrucialScan program that examines the hardware on your PC. The errors have been as follows:

  • numerous Timeout Detection and Recovery (TDR) errors. The system may or may not be stable after a TDR when the app (usually a game) is shut down.
  • BSODs when playing games ranging from SYSTEM_SERVICE_EXCEPTION to IRQ_LESS_OR_EQUAL among others or referencing nvlddmkm.sys
  • complete lockups with no error messages where the screen freezes, keyboard no longer responds, reboot is necessary

What I have done:

  • updated video drivers (tested 5 or 6 sets dating back to July, currently using the 163.75 64-bit Vista drivers)
  • updated sound drivers for both onboard audio and X-Fi
  • updated motherboard drivers to current version
  • updated the BIOS to the current version
  • applied all applicable hotfixes and Windows updates
  • disabled onboard sound (in BIOS) then, alternately, disabled the X-Fi sound card (in Device Manager)
  • disabled the parallel and serial ports in the BIOS
  • manually set the ram timing in the BIOS to match the 5-5-5-18 spec
  • set power management in Vista to Performance so the system does not attempt to power down/sleep on its own
  • monitored temperatures on the system and video card to make sure they are within spec; the 8800 is usually at 76-78C after a game has been running for awhile
  • scanned multiple times for viruses and spyware (system is clean)
  • run memtest; this detected errors in the ram and after one week in the shop (don’t ask) the ram was replaced. New ram tests ok
  • swapped out the Corsair ram, tested with Crucial Ballistix ram (2 1GB modules, PC6400), manually set to 4-4-4-12 as well as set to Auto

I’ve also done the usual disk defrag, checked for disk errors and the system comes up clean. I’ve combed over numerous forums and sites but so far the answers have been few, the complaints many. There is a general consensus that Nvidia has problems with its Vista drivers and perhaps especially the 64-bit drivers. Others have pointed fingers at the common scapegoat of Creative or noted problems with Asus motherboards.

In the end, the pattern is roughly the same. I will load up a game, start playing and anywhere from a few minutes to sometimes a few hours in, the game will crash. Interestingly, the last four crashes have been the same – complete lockups, rather than BSODs or TDRs. Airflow in and around the case is good, it never seems to run excessively hot and the crashes can occur shortly after a cold boot (I turn the PC off at night).

A lot of the crashes point toward video as the culprit but the cause of a BSOD can come from so many sources, it’s hard to say definitively what the root cause might be.

So after dinking around for weeks trying to get this system stable, I have reached the end of the line as far as what I can think to try next. My hunch is one or more components just don’t get along, whether it’s with Vista 64 specifically or just in general.

I was thinking of dumping the Asus motherboard in favor of another but I’m willing to try other things first if they seem more likely to fix this. Any and all help is appreciated.

2

Any and all help is appreciated.

Throw out the computer and buy a Mac and an xbox 360.

For a more serious answer: are you willing/able to install xp? If you have a spare harddrive lying around, try that. If you still get crashes, pull out all the hardware and run completely barebones (this includes only one stick of RAM). If everything runs fine, start plugging things back in one at a time until you can reliably get a BSOD/hardlock/whatever. My gut reaction is some combination of Vista and nVidia, but I haven’t done any hardware troubleshooting in years and have no experience with Vista and even less with nVidia.

3

Do you have a particular need for running Vista 64? I understand that it’s much less compatible in general than 32.

4

Check to see that you have installed the right nForce driver for your motherboard. I messed up at one stage and installed the nforce2 drivers instead of the nforce3 ones. This screw up gave me the same errors as you are describing.

It took me a few (painful) months to find this mistake.

5

Two comments, what exactly gets up to 76-78C? That’s fairly hot. I have an overclocked Q6600 and it never gets that hot. Supposedly a E6850 isn’t supposed to exceed 72C according to Intel( http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLA9U ). The only time I’ve locked up in Vista is when I was overclocking my CPU and was going too high. Everything else has always recovered from so far.

I use Vista 64 and a 8800GTS and haven’t noticed any issues running games like Bioshock, CoD4 demo, UT3 demo, and even odd stuff like PS2 emulators or Quake 1. I really have no idea what your problem could be. Good luck.

6

This is all very standard troubleshooting fare.

Follow steps 1 and 2 here. Once you can pass memtest and prime95 (you’ll need four instances), you can look at the video card as a possibility. Use RTHDRIBL for that.

7

Those 76-78°C were for the video card (as per Ned’s edit), and it’s not excessive for that. But do check that the CPU temperature is not too high. Check both motherboard and core readouts to make sure you get a valid one.

Do you have the very latest Creative X-Fi drivers installed, the ones that were released a week ago or so? All previous versions couldn’t handle 4 GB configurations.

Also, while 600 watts on your power supply might be sufficient overall, the 8800 GTX sucks a LOT of power and random crashes while playing games seem to point in this direction. I don’t recognize the supplier’s name, is Silverstone a decent brand?

8

Those 76-78°C were for the video card (as per Ned’s edit), and it’s not excessive for that. But do check that the CPU temperature is not too high. Check both motherboard and core readouts to make sure you get a valid one.

Do you have the very latest Creative X-Fi drivers installed, the ones that were released a week ago or so? All previous versions couldn’t handle 4 GB configurations.

Also, while 600 watts on your power supply might be sufficient overall, the 8800 GTX sucks a LOT of power. I don’t recognize the supplier’s name, is Silverstone a decent brand?

9

Silverstone a decent brand

Yes, one of the top players. Your power supply will be fine. Drivers, check them. Otherwise, take the system back to the store.

10

Thanks to all for the feedback. In order:

I already have a 360. :P

For a more serious answer: are you willing/able to install xp? If you have a spare harddrive lying around, try that. If you still get crashes, pull out all the hardware and run completely barebones (this includes only one stick of RAM). If everything runs fine, start plugging things back in one at a time until you can reliably get a BSOD/hardlock/whatever. My gut reaction is some combination of Vista and nVidia, but I haven’t done any hardware troubleshooting in years and have no experience with Vista and even less with nVidia.

I could theoretically install XP on a separate HD but I’d consider it a last resort. My hunch is hardware, not software. Outside of games the system has been rock solid with only a few exceptions (as noted above). In terms of running barebones and adding stuff in, not much to do, really. Most everything is integrated on the motherboard, the only separate cards are for video and sound. I’ve tested with the X-Fi removed and tonight I tried swapping in a GeForce 7800. Result? Hard lock in a game in about 15 minutes.

No pressing need, I just figured a 64-bit system may as well have a 64-bit OS. Plus I’m a bit of a sucker for “new and shiny”. I understood the risks going in but in terms of compatibility, I’ve not had any problem getting anything to run. The only recurring problems that seemed software related were occasional TDRs and updating the Nvidia drivers cleared up pretty much all of those.

I did indeed check. I am using the 15.08 drivers as found here.

I should have been clearer in my OP and have edited it. The temperatures refer to the 8800, not the system proper. I’ve read that the card will perform fine up to 90C or higher, so I seem to be in good shape there. SiSoft Sandra reports the motherboard temperature around 36C and the CPU(s) around 34C.

Already ran memtest, nothing found. Have not tried Prime95, will do so tonight. As I mentioned above, I get the same crashes on a different video card with a clean driver install.

Yup, latest drivers. My system only has 2GB of ram, though.

With the system crashing with a new video card installed, I’m more convinced that the motherboard is wonky, although I’ll run Prime95 to make sure it’s not a CPU issue. I’ll be taking the system in tomorrow, regardless.

Thanks for the help, all.

11

Update time.

Since my last post, I have exchanged the ASUS motherboard for an EVGA.

The EVGA board apparently had some manufacturing problems and they shipped a bunch of units out without any cables in the box. I took mine back and at the store, a new box was opened up, also sans cables. Whee. Since it’d take a few weeks for EVGA to ship replacements, the tech gave me a bunch of comp cables.

As I took apart the innards of my system and prepared to put in the EVGA board, I ran into a problem I was not in any way expecting: I couldn’t get the stock Intel HSF to mount properly. Two of the fasteners would push through and lock in place without issue, the other two would just get stuck. I spent what is a ludicrous amount of time puzzling over this, checking out various websites, videos and manuals to make sure I was installing the HSF correctly (pins aligned properly, etc.).

Eventually I have up and opted to go with a 3rd party HSF, reckoning that I could not only bypass Intel’s design but also get better cooling in the process. I chose a Noctua HSF and while the installation time was lengthy and I had a few moments where I seemed at an impasse, I finally got the PC re-assembled.

I had set up a full disk check before swapping motherboards, so Vista ran this first off. Stages 1-3 went by quickly, stage 4 stalled out and then reported errors ranging from “out of disk space to fix bad clusters” to a full-on BSOD. The Vista DVD and BIOS were unable to find the hard disk at all. Great.

After the drive failed to clear the disk check, I went to another store and picked up a few more SATA cables. I replaced the one on the HD the tech had provided and voila, disk check completed without issue.

I’ve played for a few hours since re-assembling and so far the PC has been stable. I’m hoping that the problems are behind me now. If not, blood, death, etc.

Also, exchanging motherboards prompted Vista to re-activate but it claimed my key was already in use and I’d have to verify my code over the phone. While the call didn’t take too long (probably less than 10 minutes), the automated part aborted because I apparently took too long to enter the provided code and the actual person I spoke to twice gave me incorrect numbers to enter, causing the activation to fail. We finally got a set of numbers in but I can’t say I’m thrilled at the prospect of ever having to re-install this OS. :P

50 days after I placed the order for this new PC, I now have a deep and abiding hatred of all things related to technology. I sometimes wish I knew nothing about this stuff because I’d probably have just taken the system back at the first sign of trouble instead of trying to fix it on my own.

12

Not to sound like a smarmy smart ass here, but this story has caused me to never build my own system ever again. Sure, I know how to do it, and sure it’s mostly painless, and yeah you save a bit of money. But if something goes wrong, god help you. Of course, I’ll probably end up buying a Mac anyway.

13

Counterpoint - there are so many f’ed up complete systems that will arm-rail you into obscelence - I’d NEVER buy a pre-configed system. If somethingg oes wrong on my computer, I can fix it. But a pre-made from HP, Gateway, IBM, some Dell’s etc, and welcome to the world of horrid support ala India. I think you’re way more fucked getting a pre-built system (cheaper ones) than doing it yourself… unless of course you don’t know what you’re doing.

14

An excellent point. Except you seem to have missed my last sentance.

15

What, this?

“Of course, I’ll probably end up buying a Mac anyway.”

Good choice. Those suckers work right out of the box.

16

Didn’t miss it since I’m talking about PC + Creole Ned just to offer a counterpoint.

17

I was lucky (so far, knock on wood); my latest build from last month got up and running without problems. My wife’s, though, with a similar setup, had a dead Gigabyte mobo. I have the same mobo, and no problems. But these super fancy motherboards these days–are they less reliable, or have mobos always been this flaky? My last two Asus nforce boards were rock solid.

18

From the look of your system, it appears to be overclocked. I do not think Intel makes any dual core chips that run faster then 2.4 ghz (rated) even through most of them can easily be overclocked well bast the 3.0ghz range.

There are a few things I would do is return your clock to 2.4ghz. It may be the CPU or it may be the RAM. I suspect the latter, and what is going on is that the RAM chips are overheating and being to act unstable.

It could also be that your CPU is overheating once it starts to work hard and the fan-heat sink combo isn’t up to the task of keeping it cool enough.

It could also be your powersupply isn’t up to the task and can’t feed your video card enough juice once it starts to work hard. The problem with finding this out is that there isn’t a solid number of watts you can look at to rule it out. IE: I have a 400 watt powersupply, which normally would be considered a bit low, but nearly everything in my box is very low power consumption except for the CPU and Video card, so I may fair better then someone with a 600 watt powersupply that has a much less efficient setup then I do.

Finally, you could just have a bad piece of hardware. This is really the worst thing since you can’t know what it is. The powersupply could be bad, or maybe it is the CPU, or maybe its the motherboard or the ram, etc…

19

The E6850 is supposed to be a 3 GHZ chip.

20

AFAIK, it is; mine certainly isn’t overclocked (by me at least, and I installed it) and it runs at 3ghz according to Mr. Windows.