3780

I can’t think of a way this would go down that doesn’t sound like a 9 year old kid who’s listened to his parents raving about libruls and govmint writing fiction. Could you explain to me what this would even look like? It seems completely counter to the beliefs of literally every liberal I’ve ever known.

3781

Well put, and that’s largely why I think there’s value in looking at other avenues. If people are overly invested in bigotry and tribalism, I suspect no pleas to logic will bring them back into the fold. However, if there are other aspects of a liberal platform that generate legitimate concerns in people who haven’t gone all-in on the crazy train, those are things which can potentially be addressed and perhaps get them onboard with more … um … decent candidates than Trump.

For instance,

This is something which liberals are not of a single mind about. Everyone wants fewer deaths, but the means to that end is up for debate.

-and-[quote=“Timex, post:3779, topic:126885”]
a type of statism/fascism.
[/quote]

This is another angle to consider. We all want to help people, and we all want to live in a thriving society. A society without a safety net won’t accomplish this goal, and yet a society built out of nothing but a safety net won’t either. No control allows for failure while massive control restricts movement and growth.

I wonder if there’s a way that liberals can publicly stake out a more centrist argument to try and broaden their appeal and allay fears that such a massive overreach is desired by anyone but the fringe?

3782

Venezuela.

3783

See also, Glorious Penbladian Socialist-Authoritarian Utopia with Absolutely No Gulags, Comrade

(But it’s both glorious and a utopia so I don’t see what people like @Timex are so fucking worried about)

3784

While true, there is a (very) large block of conservative voters who know that all liberals want to take all their guns.

3785

There is also a fiscal component. Rising government debt as a percent of GDP is seen as a potential death spiral, and it’s complicated to explain why the “pay our debts” ethos and home accounting principals shouldn’t apply to a nation with debt in its own sovereign currency.

3786

I think Salon touches on this question nicely with this article from last December about Trump Supporters.

In effect : There is no ACTUAL threat to the vast majority of Conservatives by Democrats or Liberals. There is only PERCEIVED threat, and that perception has been placed there over decades by Conservative media who have made a fortune by demonizing Democrats/Liberals and creating the divide we have today.

Why do Conservatives see politics as a win-at-all-costs war? Because Conservative media has spent decades convincing them that:

Fiction : Liberals want abortion legal as birth control.
Fact : Liberals want abortion to remain a legal option of last resort, especially in cases of rape, incest and where the health and well-being of mother and/or child are in danger. Most liberals are well aware of how modern birth control works and have no desire to use abortion as such, and organizations like Planned Parenthood, the boogeyman of the Conservative Christian Right, actually teach modern birth control, sexual health and family planning to prevent the need for abortion as an option among the underprivileged.

Fiction : Liberals want to take away all our guns.
Fact : Liberals like guns too! The vast majority of American gun owners are good responsible people. Hunting is not a crime, neither is sport shooting or gun collecting. The fact is that tighter regulation on who can purchase guns and how they purchase them does not impact responsible gun owners in the slightest, and only serves to remove methods by which people who should not be purchasing guns can currently do so. Tighter gun regulation won’t prevent criminals from having guns, and it won’t prevent all incidents of school/workplace/public gun violence, but if it prevents even a single incident from happening, it’s worth it.

Fiction : Liberals want America to become a Communist/Socialist state.
Fact : Only when it comes to healthcare and education. I have yet to meet an average liberal who seriously thinks we should be giving up our freedoms and individuality in exchange for government housing, three squares a day and the security of knowing Big Brother is always watching. That’s ridiculous. What liberals do want is a single payer healthcare system modeled after successful systems in Europe and Canada that treat everyone at the same level and don’t bankrupt families if someone has the misfortune to be diagnosed with cancer. What liberals also want is a reformed Education system that gives all K-12 students equal opportunity to succeed and then gives those willing to move on to higher education a path to do so without indebting themselves for 20+ years afterwards. That’s not Communism nor true Socialism, and the fact is that it would benefit every American equally (by design) no matter their ideology.

Fiction : Liberals want to live in a nanny-state where the Government controls everything and tells you what to do and how to think, and anything counter to that is met with violent oppression.
Fact : Oh, you mean like Conservative Christianity, or modern day Republican Conservatism? Yeah, that would be bad!

Combine all of that misinformation with constant repetition about how liberals are all elitist atheist assholes who think they’re better than the working class god-fearing conservatives and just want to take our tax money and give it to the lazy poor people and immigrants in exchange for their votes and you end up with an army of pissed off Americans who think the other half of the country is out to get them. Once you have achieved that level of discontent, which Conservative Media did during the Obama Administration, it’s pretty easy to mobilize those folks to go out and vote directly against their own best interests under the guise of “winning” the war against the “libtards”.

3787

Hey! I resemble that remark

3788

Ha! The sad part is that Conservative Media may have created a self-fulfilling prophecy, as I know that combating the bullshit from Conservatives over the past decade has turned me into far more of an elitist atheist asshole than I ever was previously.

3789

It’s not a valid fear, not at all, it’s the way things have always been, people who don’t look like you, sound like you or behave like you, that’s your kids, and no GOP President is going to change that.

3790

The fact that it’s happened every generation doesn’t invalidate that fear. In fact, I’d say that validates it even more!

In all seriousness, this isn’t just a generational divide. People talk about “old-timers” dying off and letting the rest of the country move forward, but that’s not going to happen with the economic and social differences between the coasts and cities against more rural and central areas of the country. The electoral map looks the way it does because there is a stark difference in the lives of the voters across those areas - and that hasn’t changed in decades.

3791

I think this was my big takeaway from this whole Trump affair. Prior to the presidential election, I believed that the trend was upward, that younger people leaned progressive and older people leaned, well, reactionary and the problem would sort itself out. Of course nothing is ever that simple, and there are other factors, rural vs urban, economic strata, educational level, probably a dozen others I don’t even think about. I do believe we’re in for a big time reaction to Trump, but in the long run, what’s to keep the cycle from swinging back his way?

3792

Not-Gulags.

3793

Follow up question, if I may sir: what would keep me out of said Not-Gulag?

3794

We accept membership in torch-wielding mobs storming the mansions of the rich and powerful; toppling of statues dedicated to religious or conservative icons like Jesus or Colonel Sanders; and/or no fewer than 40 pages of foaming-at-the-mouth hyper-SJW tumblr content as acceptable shows of loyalty, Comrade.

3795

Aw man, even the super-crispy George Hamilton version? I love that guy!

3796

Norm MacDonald is the only Colonel Sanders and has always been Colonel Sanders. All others are Heresy.

3797

Exactly. You want to create an army of die hard liberals who are hell bent on taking all your guns?

Keep doing what you’re doing conservatives, push for no permit concealed carry. Because if that’s where you’re going to go, then eventually the left will go 'fuck it, take ‘em all’.

3798

OK, that’s a pretty good example. It would never happen here, but it’s a good example. I also feel like it’s diametrically opposed to what liberals actually want, but it’s pretty hard to argue.

Maybe that’s a good example of “extreme governments on either side tend towards authoritarianism.” But I’m not sure it’s a good example of “liberal ideals lead to statism.” Because it really does run counter to every liberal belief I can think of. My mindset is probably too capitalistic though.

3799

That’s the danger, in that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Lenin likely didn’t WANT what the Soviet Union eventually became. Chavez likely didn’t WANT Venezuela to collapse into the total clusterfuck it is now.

But the notion of the government taking control of our lives, under the promise of making things better, can go poorly. Not that it’s guaranteed to, or that the answer is no government intervention at all, but being wary of this path is not without reason.

But like I said, Trump’s supporters are essentially supporting this kind of statism anyway.