Read an article…on CNN maybe, that said (and my grasp of economics isn’t stellar so I might have misunderstood something) that the Obama administration’s goal with the TPP was to build influence in the region by having countries there become more dependent on our economy. Then that could be used to get China and others to help with things like North Korea. It wasn’t said outright, but the implication (at least to me) was that Obama knew the terms of the deal weren’t super favorable to the US but that it was a tradeoff for building that influence.
Instead, our influence is now dramatically decreasing in the region as all the other leaders collectively shrug their shoulders and move on.
Timex
6017
Yes, everyone with a brain understood why the TPP was important.
Note, that didn’t include Bernie and Trump supporters.
Nesrie
6018
Which is sad because outside some of the sexism issues in the Bernie group, not a small group but also not a majority, I think the Bernie group could actually learn these things once they, well learn, that you can listen to people other than Bernie.
In my experience (personal for awhile), a lot of the Berniecrat opposition to TPP stemmed from the heavyhanded IP law that got shoved into the trade pact during the negotiations without much opportunity for public comment. Since the movement included a lot of net-savvy 20-somethings who might, ah, occasionally visit a certain Cove of Corsairs, they kinda hate anything that might regulate the net more than it already is.
Few of them took much of a strong position on the actual trade parts. Mind, a lot of that was because a lot of us were, well, net-savvy 20-somethings without a deep understanding of international trade. But for my part, when I was pretty strongly against the TPP and some of its predecessors, I was mostly just interested in seeing the internet regulations stripped from it; the rest didn’t really strike me as offensive one way or another.
I mean, that’s not to say that there wasn’t a strong isolationist/anti-trade wing of the movement, but esp. in the early days when Bernie support was just a few thousand hipster brogrammers on a subreddit, that element wasn’t nearly as strongly felt. Nowadays they tend to go allll the way down that rabbit whole which is unfortunate :-/
Thanks, that makes sense.
Here is the thing pushing for strong enforcement of existing IP laws favors American corporations, not just the tech companies, but content providers like Disney. In order for US worker to enjoy I high standard of living, they need to be enforced, especially in quasi-communist countries which really have no concept of intellectual property. I just don’t see American worker putting in the hours that Chinese, Vietnamese workers do.
On the other hand, existing IP laws were all written long before the digital economy and for the most part, they are hopelessly inadequate to the task. The really need to be re-written, and the job really should fall to net-savvy 20-something and some 30-something who’ve seen the problems with “everything should be free on the internet approach”
No idea where to put this, because I have no idea what he’s going to report…
As a reminder though, Spencer was a kid reporter in 2002 and broke the original chain of stories that led to the whole Valerie Plame dust-up, that ended in the resignation of Richard Armitage and the conviction (and executive clemency grant) to Scooter Libby.
Timex
6022
What IP law was that? From what I had seen, it was more about pushing existing IP law into Asian countries.
EFF has a decent, albeit out of date, summary.
Timex
6024
Yeah, from looking at that, it really seems like the complaint is just extending excusing IP law in the US, to other countries.
Since I’m already in the US… this isn’t a bad thing.
I mean, it is if you consider US IP law to be a disastrous mishmash of outdated policy and outright corporate hostility that you might hope global pressure might eventually help shift ;-)
Timex
6026
It’s a nonsense argument for an Americans to oppose enforcement of our own laws.
If you don’t like those laws, you can work to change them here in the US.
But opposition to the TPP, (where most of the opposition in the EFF document the is pure bullshit anyway, complaining simply that it doesn’t include things they want… So the alternative is a lack of an agreement, which also doesn’t have what they want) results in simply handing influence to other nations and minimizing the role of the US.
The position of Bernie and Trump supporters was, as was seemingly the case for everything, based in poorly thought out populist bullshit.
vyshka
6027
Would enshrining those laws in an international treaty make it more difficult for reform to occur?
Tim_N
6028
Maybe if Americans cared more about people living in other countries we wouldn’t have so many problems. Is it really nonsense that Bernie supporters might disagree with the TPP because patent extensions could very well mean that sick people in developing countries will no longer have access to certain pharmaceuticals? MSF, Oxfam, a number of other health based charities, public health institutions, etc. have all expressed concern that if patent extensions for pharmaceuticals lead to a price spike it will endanger many lives in developing countries.
Another big concern for Bernie Sanders and similar politicians is the ISDS mechanisms in the TPP. ISDS stands for investor-state dispute settlement, i.e. corporations suing governments for ruining their IP due to a policy reform, a classic example is tobacco companies suing Australia, Togo, and maybe more countries I can’t remember for bringing in plain packaging laws.
Maybe people who like to criticise “Bernie-supporters”, or better known as generally left-wing people, should at least read what their concerns are once before dismissing them. I label them as concerns because it is completely unclear how the TPP will operate in practice. It’s a completely opaque negotiation process, which means none of these concerns are ever addressed and I don’t think you can blame politicians for keeping their opposition out of principle.
Timex
6029
Dude, it’s not like it’s murdering them.
The TPP simply included rules that cause then to adopt the same laws that we already live under as Americans.
This would be an argument for some other country to not want to sign into the agreement. It’s not a legitimate reason for an American not to want to sign into it.
But whatever, it’s done. We have an imbecile President embracing poor policy out of some garbage populist trash. You guys “won” this one. Enjoy the fruits of your victory.
vyshka
6030
Sure it is legitimate reason. If someone disagrees with it they wouldn’t necessarily want to subject others to it. People can have motivations beyond competitive fairness
Tim_N
6031
I didn’t mean to sound hostile, it’s just frustrating to hear that you find it inconceivable that an American would not support a trade agreement because it will hurt people in other countries.
This is a completely separate discussion, but Americans pay far too much for pharmaceuticals due to regulatory capture. The pharmaceutical companies would love the ability to force other governments to pass on the same.
You suggest that if it adversely affects people in other countries then they just shouldn’t join the TPP, which is all well and good until you consider that not all countries are democratic and their government might not give a shit if their life-saving medicine is going to become unaffordable after they join a treaty that helps the people in government.
The ISDS is something else I brought up that will affect Americans.
Nesrie
6032
You remember when slavery was legal here… I’d not have been okay exporting that kind of shit either. You can certainly argue that certain laws are good or bad whether you live in a country that supports it or not. Sometimes you do what’s right for the world and humankind over what makes America or American’s richer/better-off.
MikeJ
6033
I would think so. Locking a bunch of countries into the decrepit and Disney-driven US approach seems like a bad idea to me. I’m also scratching my head at those who figured TPP was a bad deal for America (apart from the locking in aspect).
vyshka
6034
I wish he would hurry up. The suspense!
