4277

The problem isn’t that you’re stupid. The problem is that everyone else is.

And now instead of Andy Griffith reruns, they’re watching Sensible Vaccine Criticism and Why Immigration is Being Underreported and The Earth, Is It Really Round?

4278

Like @Telefrog noted, its not that Facebook has bad content and ideas, other platforms and media do too. It is that the Facebook algorithm is designed intentionally in a way that pushes extremism. It is designed to feed people increasingly radicalized views and groups in the name of ‘engagement’. It. literally takes an active role in turning people into alt right, white supremacist, 3%er, Proud Boys, etc.

4279

I can delete those pushed stories, and block them. And yes, people can change the channel — just as they can block or delete those pushed stories — but, in practice, they don’t change the channel.

Yes, like Fox News.

I think what FB does with their algorithm should be illegal. But I don’t really see how me not using it makes that happen. I think Google does bad things, but I have a Google email address. Should I stop using it? How deep does this go?

4280

Just to repeat, Facebooks own metrics show that 64% of all people who join extremist groups on Facebook do so due to their algorithm pushing them. I would be willing to wager a non trivial percent of the remaining 36% do so because a friend or relative of theirs joined due to the algorithm, and brought them with.

Facebook is an active, intentional, knowing, and financial beneficiary of increasing extremism. They literally do not care if people die, they were culpable after all of being behind the Rohyngia genocide.

Fuck Facebook. Melt the servers.

4281

I mean its all choices. How bad is what company XYZ does, and should you stop using them? Good question. Google does bad things, yes. Anything that rises to the level of inciting genocide? Not that I’ve seen. So that’s a pretty clear bright line for me.

But there is still a fundamental difference with Facebook and many other companies. With Facebook you are the product. If significant numbers of people left Facebook that would impact their bottom line. Their entire model is based on user data being used.

And while Google does some bad things, they also have done some good ones and have provided some value to society. Facebook acts as a net negative on society and the world today. And its because of choices they make.

4282

This.

4283

I don’t get pushed stories but I do get links to people on my friend’s list to notify me that they’ve updated something.

I guess I may get stories pushed to me but I don’t see them. Where would they be? On my wall? I never look at my wall. It seems entirely possible to me to use Facebook in such a way that all I ever see are updates from people on my friends list.

4284

This is basically my own experience. I do get the occasional advertisement, but I routinely block them reflexively, whether I like them or not. I don’t read news on FB; I just see updates of the stuff people I’m connected with have posted.

4285

Thats great, you’re using Facebook in a way that avoids the most toxic aspects.

The trouble is that the vast majority of users do not do this.

Hey @scottagibson its good you don’t use Facebook to get your news. You’re not the problem. The problem is the hundreds of millions of people who do.

I mean if everyone used Facebook like you two, we aren’t having this conversation. Problem is you are the minority use case. In fact Facebook probably dislikes your usage and would much prefer you look at the wall, news, etc. thats their profit center. To Facebook you are a problem, and their goal would be to shift you into the other use categories.

‘Hey I only use this cocaine to get stains out of my kitchen counters, its a great whitening agent.’

‘Sure, but most people using it are getting coked out of their mind and causing societal problems’

‘Yeah, but I never think about ingesting it, I wouldn’t know how’

‘So? Clearly other people are doing it, and it is a big issue’

‘See? I’m not the problem’

‘You’re still contributing to the finances of a company actively creating social issues, and is a problem’

4286

This is probably just a poor analogy problem, but how would my not using cocaine to clean my counters have any impact whatsoever on cocaine abuse?

Really, that’s the question I’m asking.

4287

Yeah, generally I feel like businesses are free to do what they want and conduct themselves how they want. But when you reach the point where you have a combination of 1) technology that preys on human psychology, 2) a desire to use that technology for nefarious ends, and 3) a userbase numbering nearly three billion, then regulation needs to be a priority.

4288

Hmm. The Social Media Temperance movement. Good luck with it!

4289

If you believe that those companies are doing bad stuff, then yes, you should stop using them. In doing so, you are boycotting them, and not providing them with the revenue (via money or other indirect means that these companies tend to leverage) that they would get from you, and ultimately this kind of thing changes corporate behavior.

The reality is, if you can’t be bothered to do something like stop using facebook, then you don’t really give a shit about any of this stuff, even if you pretend like you do… because facebook isn’t that fucking essential.

We can look through history and see all kinds of social change that was created by groups of people who made real, tangible sacrifices to achieve that change. Hunger strikes, imprisonment, physical violence, death.

But people can’t even stop using fucking facebook? Seriously, if you can’t stop using the service, then you need to shut the fuck up about it… because apparently they’re providing you with a god damned ESSENTIAL service, that you literally pay nothing for.

4290

It’s not unprecedented. In the 80s and 90s American society decided that they weren’t OK with cigarette companies using psychological tricks to get kids to start smoking.

It was a war on multiple fronts, including societal pressure to get entertainment companies to stop making smoking look cool in television shows and movies.

4291

Let the products sell themselves.
Fuck advertising, commercial psychology.
Psychological methods to sell should be destroyed.

(guitar riff)

4292

Apple and every other phone manufacturer routinely poisons their employees and the environment, every car manufacturer is destroying the world, finance is impoverishing billions. It’s a long list. When did you have your solar array installed?

4293

Individually? It wouldn’t. But the more people using their product, the more power, influence, and money they have to push it. You think all those cartels have the kind of power they do inherently? Nah, the more money they have, the more they are able to buy police, judges, institutions, etc. Which in turn gives them greater leeway and power to push their product. We see it now, where because cartels effectively control some cities, they are able to operate without interference.

So no, an individual has no impact. But if enough individuals act? It can matter. It truly is a collective action problem.

And creating social opprobrium and shaming those who don’t change.

So let me be blunt. Scott and Mark, you should not use Facebook. They are actively evil. You should stop using them, and others you know should too. Your continued usage is contributing to their success and ability to cause problems. Even if you aren’t directly part of the problem, you increase their ability to be a problem.

Nice whataboutism there.

Be mindful of e-waste, don’t get sucked into the hype trains, and advocate for environmental policies that reduce such actions and create financial barriers designed to stop exporting of such actions to other countries with weaker environmental laws (such as tariffs on goods with large environmental impacts from such countries to reduce the incentive for such outsourcing).

cars have nessecity and benefits, but be mindful, reduce fossil fuel usage and eliminate needless trips, use public transport where possible, and buy more fuel efficient vehicles.

Vote for Elizabeth Warren, and others of her stripe.

Done. Now what.

4294

How come Facebook is the only one that doesn’t get government action suggested as part of the solution to the collective action problem?

The super cool thing is that even if you don’t have a Facebook account, they most likely have a profile on you that they can monetize. Ain’t tracking wonderful?

4295

Oh I absolutely 100% advocate government action to constrain certain behaviors of the algorithmic publishing Facebook does.

I also advocate for people to stop using Facebook.

Both is good to me.

My post wasn’t a response to regulating how social media platforms push content, but why specific individuals should stop using Facebook. Hence why I didn’t flag regulation. It was me telling Scott and Mark personally that Facebook is bad, and they shouldn’t use it.

4296

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

Yeah… apple does some bad shit. If you actually give a shit, then you should put your money where your mouth is and not buy their stuff. Otherwise you’re just pantomiming giving a shit. It’s just talk.

Now, it’s totally reasonable for you to not ACTUALLY give a shit, too. Or it’s fine to say, “Oh, well I don’t like that stuff, but the net value I get from these companies is more important than the bad stuff they do, so I’m gonna look the other way.”

But you need to acknowledge that is what you’re doing.

And that’s what you’re doing if you keep using facebook… you’re saying that you care less about the bad stuff they do, then the value they provide to you with their service.

But in that case, it’s probably worth examining whether they are ACTUALY giving you that value, or whether you’ve just fallen into a habit where you feel like you need that stuff… because you know you don’t. Use of facebook is really not some critically valuable thing. It’s not as useful or important as a phone, or a car.