Someone explain this intellectual position

From the lead story in today’s Salon, which notes “even those who oppose the war should celebrate a shining moment in the history of human freedom.”

April 11, 2003 | The liberation of Paris. The fall of Mussolini, of Ceacescu, of Milosevic. The end of the Khmer Rouge, of Idi Amin. These are shining moments in the history of freedom, of mankind’s long and bitter and never completely achieved struggle to resist tyranny and evil, to make a world where torture and rape and murder and war and injustice and savage lust for power and all the other ancient, all-too-familiar demons are pushed back into the darkness. No one, whether on the left or the right, can look at the faces of those who have been liberated, whether in Paris or Bucharest or Phnom Pen or in the American South in 1865, without feeling one’s heart quicken: We did it, we won one.

“We” is not America, or France, or the Union Army, or Cambodia, or blacks, or whites, or Arabs or Jews: “We” is mankind. To stand in solidarity with humanity on those few occasions when it lurches forward is more than an honor, it is mandatory if you have a soul, like keeping faith with those you love.

And so, at this moment, as the Mordor shadow of Saddam Hussein, a truly evil man who, like a sociopathic murderous husband, killed everything that he could not control, lifts from the long-suffering people of Iraq, all of us, on the left and the right, Democrats and Republicans, America-lovers and America-haters, Syrians and Kuwaitis and Israelis and Palestinians, owe it to our common humanity to stop, put aside – not forever – our doubts and our grief and our future fears, and for one deep moment, celebrate.

These paragraphs come from Salon’s executive editor, Gary Kamiya, whose newsmagazine has offered daily jeremiads against this intervention. Gary Kamiya, whose newsmagazine has doled out daily diatribes against America’s having taken the conspicuous lead in affirming what he now calls “our common humanity.”

Gary Kamiya, who concludes today’s editorial with yet more of his “doubts” and “grief” and “future fears”.

Someone please explain this self-annihilating un-logic. Am I to understand that Kamiya is pro-liberation (“liberation” is Kamiya’s word – the title of his essay, in fact) but anti-doubt, -grief, and -future fears? Is he pro-“struggle to resist tyranny and evil” but anti-shooting?

At no point has Kamiya ever offered an alternative method of “liberation” than the one he now waxes poetic in the wake of. He is one of the droves of editorialists who put great stock in “inspections” and “diplomatic pressure” and “international consensus” without ever offering anything more than vague hopes for liberation.

Now that his vague hopes are a reality, and Salon runs a lead photo of joyous Iraqis kissing the cheeks of a smiling 3rd Infantry soldier, Kamiya is in the intellectually plum position of being able to write this infuriating shit and still hang onto his cherished oppositionist cred.

Dan it’s easy man. Anyone who can see the joy on the face of the Iraqi people and the love they are giving to their liberators, and still think that all war is bad and never an option, is so far gone that there’s no point in either trying to reason with them or listen to them.

However anyone who thinks that war is always necessary and doesn’t think war is a horrible and sad thing that should only be used as a last resort is so far gone in the opposite direction that there’s no point in either trying to reason with them or listen to them.

I personally can see both sides to every argument, making it hard for me to pick a side but easy for me to stay on that side. And I’m sure there are many people like that.

However this jackass is just covering his ass ‘Some of my best friends are soldiers’ style.

To many of the people liberated, the war was a great thing.

To the parent of the two children shot dead by American soldiers when he did’t understand the signals about waiting to go through the checkpoint, to the people who lost children (both young and adult), the people whose homes were shelled into non-existence by either side, and many others, war sucks.

Sometimes war is a necessary step. But it’s not “good.” The end result of this war will very likely be “good,” but there was “very bad” involved for tens of thousands of people as well.

War <> black and white

So the logic is…

  1. Toppling “the Mordor shadow of Saddam” would be a grand achievement for our common humanity.

  2. Civilian casualties and displacement suck.

  3. Toppling “the Mordor shadow of Saddam” inevitably involves civilian casualties and displacement.

therefore

  1. We should rejoice in this awe-inspiring liberation of humanity, but still oppose this war.

Exactly! As explained by South Park, this is called “Having your cake and eating it too.”

You’re absolutely right. The only thing I feel slight regret is that it’s harder for the kids who got their limbs blown off to come out and say thank you. Someone should get a forklift and bring them out to show their luv.

“Dan’s a little bit country. I’m a little bit Rock’n’roll…”

Yeah, I won’t speak to that particular article but it’s rational to see the fall of Saddam Hussein as a good thing while still questioning the manner it came about, the motivations of those that brought it about, and the potential consequences.

WTF kind of lame CIA is it that can’t even manage to assassinate one guy and a bunch of his doubles? That would have been a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too. Or a chance of it, at least.

Unless I’m mistaken, that would actually be illegal in our country. There is an executive order that prohibits US intelligence agencies from participating in assassinations of heads of foreign states. And presumably, heads of domestic states as well. :wink:

–milo
http://www.starshatter.com

I think that was revoked by Bush.

Yep. That was just an executive order, not a law. Presidents can rescind those at will, I believe.

I think lobbing bombs purposefully and directly at the leaders of countries used to be considered “improper” as well, although I find the concept of “rules of war” rather ludicrous for the most part. (Not that there’s anything wrong with lobbing 2,000 pound bombs at Saddam, mind you. Just saying that I believe it was formerly considered unacceptable.)

I don’t think Bush has rescinded that order. Has he? If he did that’s big news and I missed it… but Denny’s right that he can, any president can. The Decapitation attack on Saddam doesn’t count because the Executive Order doesn’t apply to Command & Control (Westwood!) targets. Israel has been doing it, and we did it several times when we went after Noriega, Osama, and Gaddafi. (Note: we didn’t succeed any of those times (Noreiga surrendered)- it’s hard to nail a paranoid.)

The CIA did do as much as it could (they were severely hamstrung, and on at least one occasion severely overstepped their bounds) in ousting Saddam. But he’s too good at surviving. He’s built an amazingly tight regime, now hopefully smashed, and he’s fond of redundancies. I could be wrong, just recollection here, but I think there were something like 5 failed coup attempts in the past 12 years. That doesn’t could the two popular uprisings Saddam smashed.

Didn’t Clinton also rescind it during at least part of his administration?

Nope. It’s come under discussion at a few points, but it’s been there in an unbroken span since Ford put it in place in 1976, in response to the CIA abuses revealed by the Church hearings.

I don’t. They should exist so that the UN, or equivalent, have something to enforce. There will often be war in the world, and no side is ever completely right, so it is necessary to have some body that does not throw in it’s might with whatever side has the most alluring trade agreements waiting, and that works for the betterment of mankind and the world.
Starting a war against another country should not be allowed, in a civilised world.
If conflict is started (like in civil wars), there is a code of conduct that is there to as much as possible protect the civilians and protect the soldiers, who will have to live with actions no person should have to commit, in a civilised world.
They are not there so much to make war “clean”, as they are to make sure that those who doesn’t want to be involved won’t be in as much risk and to make sure that there will be something left to build a better place from when the war is over.

Having an effective regulating body however, is difficult.

This is why the UN needs to build a global Thunderdome to resolve disputes between nations.

I don’t.[/quote]

Perhaps I should have said “ironic.”

Still, they are ludicrous, if anything because war is a ludicrous way to settle things. (I’m not talking about the “should we have gone into Iraq” question, I mean in general. Humanity should move on from such idiocy, as you seem to agree)

And they’re ludicrous because they’re not followed. They change in every war. The American broke the rules in the Revolution when we didn’t line up in bright coats and start shooting, but instead took sniper shots from behind trees. The Iraqis broke it with their “We surrender. No, just kidding!” attacks in civilian clothing. Both sides broke them in horrendous ways during Vietnam. It’s the case in ever war.

I agree that they are theoretically a good thing. But they’re a half-step away from “rules of murder.” You’re setting rules for something that people shouldn’t do at all.

And in the end, about all they’re used for is to prosecute people on the losing side.

Nice use of passive voice. So who’s going to prevent wars from being started? And how are transgressions punished? Do you just send a bigger army to invade the invading country and change their regime?

Nice use of passive voice. So who’s going to prevent wars from being started? And how are transgressions punished? Do you just send a bigger army to invade the invading country and change their regime?[/quote]
Thanks.
Maybe you missed my “Having an effective regulating body however, is difficult.”
Maybe I should have clarified a bit and written “border-line impossible”.
And looking back at it, I don’t know if I like the word “allow”.

Maybe you missed my “Having an effective regulating body however, is difficult.”
Maybe I should have clarified a bit and written “border-line impossible”.
And looking back at it, I don’t know if I like the word “allow”.

The Brits and the Argies know how to do it. The Falklands War was downright gentlemanly – not one single reported violation of any Geneva Convention.