Sorry, boys, no Iraqi Nuke Complex...another US fabrication

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=10&u=/ap/20030410/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_nuclear_find_4

ElBaradei said the inspectors should return as soon as possible, subject to Security Council guidance, to resume their search for banned arms.

Right after they help O.J. find Nicole’s real murderer.

Gee, the people who were supposed to look for this stuff in Iraq are denying that this stuff exists? SHOCK! SHOCK and AWE!

And now you know why we take this kind of thing with a grain of salt, was ANYONE stating it was unmitigated fact and we had you and neener neener neener? Of course not.
Only TWO sources ever reported it. That is some pretty shitty propaganda work right there.

Take your ‘I’m anti-everything’ teenage bullcrap and jam it up your ass with a great big cork.

I’ll readily agree that nothing’s proven with regards to this nuclear complex, but frankly, this “proof” that the claim is false is even weaker. Apparently an unnamed “expert familiar with U.N. nuclear inspections”–though apparently not someone that actually participated in those inspections–said that “it was implausible to believe that U.S. forces had uncovered anything new at the site.” Implausible based on what reasoning or evidence? The source doesn’t say.

They don’t say who this expert is, either (he demanded anonymity… why would he do that?), or what his credentials are, or whether he has ever been to the Tuwaitha nuclear complex. It seems obvious that he isn’t there now, since the AP story was posted from Vienna.

The article also notes that “David Kay, a former IAEA chief nuclear inspector, said Thursday that the teams he oversaw after the 1991 Gulf War never found an underground site at Tuwaitha despite persistent rumors.”

So could someone explain to me how they could use that article as the basis for a thread entitled “Sorry, boys, no Iraqi Nuke Complex…another US fabrication?”

Well the name is a clue. Guest here is calling herself Baghdad Rose, an obvious play on Tokyo Rose. Since Tokyo Rose was an anti-US propaganda machine…

I agree with Ben’s logic, but I still view this story with some skepticism. I mean, it sounds like the radiation was easily detectable, and that’s in fact how the Marines found the place. You’d think that the IAEA would have found it too. Although they were often frustrated by Saddam, they weren’t incompetent. I dunno…I’m waiting to see what actually comes out of this (and I realize Ben/Andrew are too, not saying you aren’t).

Also, re: the anonymous scientist, the story at least implies that he wants to remain anonymous because he’s criticizing the Marines, essentially saying they’re sort of idiots. And the fact that he’s in Vienna doesn’t mean he never went to the complex–the IAEA is based in Vienna. I view this claim of having found the nuke program with healthy skepticism for now.

Also, re: the anonymous scientist, the story at least implies that he wants to remain anonymous because he’s criticizing the Marines, essentially saying they’re sort of idiots.

So what is he afraid they are they going to do, shoot him through the head? People call Marines, the Bush Administration and the whole of America idiots every day, and yet they are all still wandering around with smarmy grins of moral superiority on their slack-jawed faces.

This guy is anonymous because he’s afraid he’ll be proven wrong and this will be thrown back in his face. That’s perfectly understandable, considering how many exiles have come out of Iraq, including Iraq’s ex-vice-president, swearing up and down that Iraq had a viable nuclear research program that could produce enriched uranium by 2005.

Oh please, he’s anonymous because he’s speaking in a background capacity, not as an employee of the IAEA. It’s about as controversial as all those “senior administration officials” you see in the paper.

Didn’t Powell supposedly present rock-solid “proof” some while back that Saddam Hussein had countless terrible weapons of mass destruction? So why can’t the US military seem to find any of them, now that they are in control of most of the country? Wouldn’t a “proof” require some knowledge of the nature and location of such weapons?

And wasn’t the standard line of the war supporters that Saddam was an irrational uncontainable undeterrable psycho tyrant who’d throw around WMD, which he supposedly owned in great numbers, just for the fun of it? Why then didn’t he use any of them when his defeat became clear?

Something doesn’t quite add up here…

Holy shit man, get a grip.

The WAR has been going on just 3 weeks. They’re not even done fighting yet and you expect them to discover what are presumably very well hidden caches of weapons and equipment?

That’s the point, no? If those caches are so “very well hidden” that no location is known then how could Powell believe he had “proof” for their existence?

Besides, there’s the other little issue why the supposedly psychotic Saddam didn’t use any of those weapons…

Haven’t you heard? Senior Iraqi leadership and WMD are being smuggled into Syria. My guess is after we attack Syria to get the WMD we’ll discover Syrian leadership and WMD have fled to Iran. Yes. I am kidding but only a very little bit.

Besides, there’s the other little issue why the supposedly psychotic Saddam didn’t use any of those weapons…

And the other little issue on why he barely even raised a defense against American troops as they rapidly advaned on Baghdad… yet no one doubts that he didn’t have them to begin with.

There’s tons of reasons why chemical weapons might not have been deployed: the advance was far too rapid, the Iraqis who would have carried out the orders were demoralized or didn’t want to be the one to push the button and be tried as war criminals after their regime inevitably fell, and the lines of communication between Iraqi leadership and the field was severed almost immediately. All three of these are very possible, considering how most military commanders have commented time and time again on how the Iraqi resistance has seemed completely devoid of leadership, how many Iraqi soldiers have been surrendering almost without a fight, and how America has advanced quickly enough that almost no oil fields have been set on fire (which Saddam, as in Kuwait in the first Gulf War, would certainly have ordered).

In other words: just because Iraq has them and Saddam gave the order to use them doesn’t make the deed done - there are a ridiculous number of middle steps between the order and the US dodging ricin clouds a thousand miles away. It sounds like the soldiers might not have had the will to become war criminals over a pointless fight, especially since most of the Iraqi forces the US and UK encountered during their advance on Baghdad were mere conscripts.

I’m simply amazed at how many people still doubt that Iraq has chemical weapons, considering all the finds of illegal chemical weapons that the inspectors made at the beginning of the year, including six missiles (“Oh, we forgot about those…” said the Iraqis) and Iraq’s complete failure to supply documentation that the weapons they had in the 90’s were ever destroyed. What, do you think all these instances of Iraqi contempt for the UN’s inspection process were just wacky mistakes? Keep reaching, guys.

If only they would go from Syria to Iran via France. :wink:

"If only they would go from Syria to Iran via France. "

Oh but they are! You haven’t heard about Operation Upward Sweep? But that’s OK, we are preparing. White flag production has already increased 163%. :)

DeanCo–

After I posted that, I thought, “What about DeanCo?” I knew you would be willing to sacrifice for my safety here on the other side of the ocean and left it.

Don’t let the fact that they haven’t found any WMD, or that no WMD were used during the war cloud your opinion.

Don’t let the fact that they haven’t found any WMD, or that no WMD were used during the war cloud your opinion.

WMD found before the war:

Eleven chemical warheads found by UN inspectors in January. Iraq’s response: “Uh… we forgot about those.”

Iraqi missile designed to strew chemical bomblets. This was found a mere two weeks before the war began.

WMD found after the war:

US forces find weapons cache of 20 chemical warheads

I already covered numerous reasons why Saddam might not have even able to deploy his troops effectively, let alone get them to use WMD.

Hey, Tim, post script… you see what’s going on the television right now, right? Where they are releasing children from jails, warehouses filled with human remains are being found, people are telling stories about the torture camps (here is a tour for you to go on of one of them) that makes Last House on the Left seem like a Hugh Grant date movie?

After all of this, are you really claiming “Well, certainly Saddam was evil enough to stuff the corpses of hundreds of Iraqis in garbage bags, imprison children, torture dissidents five times a day unless they bribed the guards… but he’d never flout the UN! Except on all that other stuff I just said. But not flout on WMD!”

Then think about the evidence for the destruction of their WMD that Iraq never presented, despite being given chance after chance to do so. Think about all the surprise inspections by the UN, where they were stalled at the gates as trucks zoomed out the back door. Think about Saddam’s gleeful use of WMD in the past, including gassing more Kurds than we killed Japanese in Hiroshima.

Also, think about the Iraqi Information Minister, who recently reported that all of the Americans had been butchered outside of Baghdad, and that Saddam International had not been taken. This is the exact same guy you are now choosing to believe when he said, “Iraq has no WMD”.

Who is really allowing their opinion to be clouded here?

Yes Christoph, what doesn’t add up is your recollection of that event. Powell made a compelling case that Iraq has WMD by showing sattelite photography showing them doing suspicious things, like moving tanker trucks out of an area just before inspectors arrived. The thing Powell proved was that Iraq hadn’t accounted for the WMD they ADMITTED they had in 1991. Iraq couldn’t/didn’t account for it, couldn’t prove they destroyed it, and also lied about it. We know he had WMD. We know he kept working on WMD past 1991. Inspectors found some and found a nuclear enrichment facility in 1994(?). This was after they almost certified Iraq free of WMD. A defector tipped them where to look.

Saddam has a track record of being very good at hiding things and very tenacious about keeping them. It’s actually more reasonable (given his track record) to assume that WMD do extist somewhere in Iraq, and that we’ll find them eventually, than to assume they do not. Mainly because Iraq has no record of ever destroying what we know he had. (This is all in The Threatening Storm.)

As for why he didn’t use them, I think it’s because he believed using them would cause him to lose any/all International support. Since he likely was depending on France, Russia, Germany, and China to deter the war, he probably wasn’t able to bring WMD to bear, or unwilling to take that risk. It’s also possible that the Inspections caused him to hide them too well and the quick US advance kept them out of reach. Why do you think we sped into Western Iraq so quickly? To prevent Saddam’s western launchers, and a possible WMD scud, from launching against Israel.

Anyway, this kind of “Where are the WMD?!?” conjecture 3 weeks into the war and only days into the occupation/rebuilding process, looks pretty damn naive.