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Romulus is destroyed in 2387, 12 years after DS9 ends.

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I missed that line - that makes me like the movie more. Now if we could only resolve the “Kirk wandering into a random cave on a planet that happens to house old-spock”, which is about as likely as me heading to a boozecan and wandering into Osama Bin Laden’s cave…

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This is what actually made zero sense to me. Why allowing the re-taking of a test which can not be passed??

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It’s not like they say up front that the test is unpassable. The students are legitimately trying to beat the scenario.

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As a random stab at a justification: The test is designed to teach cadets how to cope with failure and no-win situations. Someone who wants to take the test again has clearly not learned that lesson, so they let them try again until they get it.

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When it comes to nerd fights about the Kobayashi Maru test, we should probably set the ground rules to only cover the test as portrayed in the movies, versus any of the Star Trek novels.

Otherwise, as the Wiki entry seems to show, we’ll be arguing over what Captain Archer did in the Enterprise novel, and really, who cares about that series?

Anyway, on to your points:

Kirk made the cheating obvious, as he wanted to get caught.

Looking back through the scene, I think the flickering screens and lights was an overexageration meant to make it clear to the audience what was going on.

While the cadets and test staff react to the flickering, the dialog on the observation deck shows indication it was immediately obvious that Kirk cheated:
“How the hell did that kid beat your test?” “I do not know.”

Later, Kirk looks rather surprised to be called down for the inquiry. He certainly doesn’t look calm, collected and confident as the charge of academic misconduct is called out, and while he points out that the test is a cheat during his heated exchange with Spock, it seems more spur of the moment than something he planned out before hand in between flirting with the co-eds.

The Kobayashi Maru test is highly imperfect as a measure for fear

On the surface, I completely agree. Hell, the way Uhura sarcastically relays the orders from Star Fleet, and McCoy barks back at Kirk, it’s clear that none of them are going to be “facing fear” after the first time through the simulator.

However, I think Starfleet’s real purpose for the test is still the same as it was in Wrath of Khan: A test of character in a “no-win” situation with no one correct resolution.

Spock says, “The purpose is to experience fear. Fear in the face of certain death. To accept that fear and maintain control of one’s self and one’s crew. This is a quality expected in every Starfleet captain.”

Spock is correct in that Kirk’s father is the perfect example of the Starfleet officer ideal. Even when things went from bad to “oh fuck!”, he kept control of the situation as best he could to save as many as he could. He didn’t “win” by any means, but he performed with honor.

I believe the importance he places on experiencing fear is just the spin he personally puts on it coming from a lifetime of being told to control his emotions, while it’s really about how that cadet maintains order and acts decisively while everything goes to hell.

After all, there’s nothing in either movie to indicate that the ship and crew had to die, they may have still been allowed to withdraw when it was obvious they could not save the other ship, with the lesson being that you have to know when it’s worth risking the life of your crew for others.

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They both knew where the Starfleet listening post is and were heading there. Depending on the geography and where they landed in relation to each other, it’s not impossible that they ran into each other on the way.

Even if they didn’t, they would have met up at the post anyway, so meeting in a more dramatic matter didn’t bother me.

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It’s an entire planet - what if one landed in Australia-equivalent and the other landed in Sweden-equivalent?

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Yeah, that is where I am arguing from as well.

Hahaha, nobody.

I don’t have the benefit of immediate review of the scene as you do (you dirty pirate!), but none of that is particularly damning. Sure, he’s smug while he does it, but a bit shaken up when actually going to face the music. It’s not like that was easy to do. That was the hard part.

I agree with all of that! Of course, the two inconsistencies in my mind remain: when you pay attention to the sequence of events in the actual KM scenario, there’s no way to win. (God dammit, I could have sworn in Wrath of Khan that they were Romulan Birds of Prey uncloaking suddenly) You are beset upon by overpowering, immediately aggressive numbers. It seems to me only blatant cowardice or refusal to follow the preceding orders of the scenario’s rescue mission would allow for survival - knowledge that is hypothetically impossible to know. Aside from that, you can’t accurately measure how a captain will respond in that situation until it happens, not fully at any rate. I feel that was part of Kirk’s point, but I may be projecting. Also, they just shouldn’t’ve let him take it over again!

No argument that that is the intent of the KM exercise and whereas it isn’t anywhere near a flat failure at measuring that, Kirk just took it all to the next level. Maintaining order? Acting decisively? I’d call rigging the scenario a decisive act and a guarantee of order maintenance.

I disagree. I don’t think, after seeing the full scenario in WoK and the rigged version in ST, that there is a real way to win. It’s a trap, and it’s one that doesn’t trigger until the starship closes in range on the Maru, IIRC. Refusing to answer the Maru’s distress call may ensure survival of the ship and crew, but there’s no way that is an acceptal solution. The KM exercise is for sure meant to be a no-win situation.

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If you presume that they would’ve been abandoned near the post intentionally by those stranding them on the planet - which is reasonable in both cases, I think - then it’s within the realm of possibility that Kirk and Spock Prime might find each other.

It’s still pretty damned unlikely, of course…

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[i]“You have not understood the point of this thread.”

“Please, enlighten me.”

“It is to know fear. Fear in the face of off-topic nitpicking, to maintain control of one’s posts in the face of fear of a no-win nerd fight.”[/i]

Why would you let Kirk take it a third time?

If I was in charge of the test, I would ABSOLUTELY allow any cadet to take it as many times as they like, with the provision that none of the cadets are ever told what they’re being graded on, and it’s never discussed by the teaching staff as a “no-win” scenario.

If anything, I would subvertly encourage the idea among the cadets that there might be a “correct” solution, it’s just that no one has found it yet. I’d also strongly imply that the “wrong” solution would get them booted instantly.

You’re not going to get actual “fear of death” in the simulation, then, but you’ll get otherwise-confident cadets facing the next best thing: the stress and fear of a situation they’re no longer in control of.

But this is Starfleet, so no doubt in their fluffy utopia, that would be too mean. I mean, even Lt. Reginald Endicott “Broccoli” Barclay III managed to graduate, so they probably hand-hold everyone anyway.

Kirk’s belief that there is no “no-win” situation is always the correct way to lead “decisivesly”

One of the changes the movies made to Kirk’s character that he didn’t seem to face in the original television series is that his “decisive” command actually caused some needless injuries and deaths.

In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Kirk keeps overriding Decker’s warnings, pushing the ship and crew beyond what they were ready for. Towards the beginning of the film, this ends up costing two crew members their lives in a transporter accident because Kirk wants them on the ship NOW. It also leads to them nearly losing the entire ship in that wormhole.

Later, Kirk orders the Enterprise straight into the V’ger cloud without caution despite the protests of Decke, and ends up getting Lt. Ilia killed and replaced with a robot duplicate thanks to his “decisive” leadership stance.

Hell, most of the other films include plenty of examples of the rest of the crew saving themselves from Kirk’s “decisive” commands because he believes there’s no such thing as a “no-win” situation and therefore damn the photon torpedos, full speed ahead, Mr. Sulu!

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LOL I had forgotten about this, thank goodness you’re here.

No this film’s time travel was far below average. For a Trek story with good time travel, try ‘Time’s Arrow’, ‘Yesterday’s Enterprise’ but imo nothing beats ‘Children of Time’, which is one of the best time travel stories in the history of film/television.

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Kirk was only 14 kilometers away from the outpost, according to the escape-pod computer. He met Spock Prime on the way, so he was likely transported down even closer to the outpost.

Nero seemed like someone who would think in “Kill you? I want you to live a long life filled with misery like mine!” terms, and wouldn’t just strand Spock to die on that planet. I could see him putting him down close enough to the post to live, but not close enough that the could get there quick enough to do anything about the situation.

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I wanted to just say “Wow”, but I will put in my pointless fence-riding, which I have warmed to on the forums.

Well, tedious dissection aside (for me only , I know some of you guys happily revel in it and that is cool with me, it just seems to get in the way of enjoying otherwise good remakes or sequels to existing franchises), there was going to be no perfect film to satisfy ever bit of history (or subsequent events, in this case). I thought they did a spectacular job of weaving in the origins and bits of the Star Trek mythos. Much of the old things about each character that made us love the original series were in there.

As it neared the end, I realized how little the space shots and battles had been the important bits for me. The developing relationships and interplay between the actors was great, if crazily rushed.

Best. Reboot. Evar. And easily one of the best Star Trek movies in my book.

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Ha, ha. Star trek nerdiness denial.

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Ten words and the movie rises from the abyss. :)

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In the original presentation of the scenario ala ST: Wraith of Khan, the ships were Romulan, which is probably the source of BD’s “error”. I guess it would seem too repetitious to have the enemy in the scenario and in the actual events in the movie be the same.

TR;DR: I loved the movie, despite its flaws and can’t wait for the Sequel. Every reboot wants to maintain the premise AND be freed of continuity and Abrams does this really well. I normally hate time travel stories and this one is OK for me as a method to get a new canvas.

I guess I am the only one who hates the destruction of Vulcan, though. “Welp, Didn’t want that pillar of the Federation anyway”. It just changes SO MUCH about the Original Series continuity, which I guess from previous posts is what endears it to others. It has such long term implications for everything. It does explain what I have heard expressed so often: “If Vulcans are all almost supermen, why are the SF crews primarily human?”. Essentially remaking the barrier from them ruling the universe from philosophical to numbers invokes the Tolkien Elf Stratagem. One wave of the pen and everything can come from Earth/New Vulcan, though. I thought it was a little too dyadic to have Kirk lose his Father and Spock lose his mother to the same enemy, though.

The whole robocop/James Tiberius Kirk thing could have been defused by making the cop’s line read “identify yourself with your full name, please”, although it does make him seem a little more pompous, which is the point of showing the “troubled” youth.

The Star Trek: Countdown comics explain so much what happens in the movie. It really bothered me that the mining ship was an H.R. Giger nightmare with ultra torps (someone else noted it was Borg-tech Romulan experimental superweapons grafted on to the mining ship) and that “supernova can destroy the whole galaxy” thing (red matter is made from some mineral found on some planets in the original nova system that fuels the super nova into a nebula-sized event that will keep growing as long as it has more matter to consume, even across the void between stars). It shows the explosion as been set in the Late TNG era, in which Data commanding Enterprise, Worf as a Klingon General, Jordi as the inventor of the “Jellyfish” ship, etc.

I extra loved the cast. Everyone was great, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov, Pike etc.; Spock was exactly right casting and a great performance, although weird stuff with Uhura was weird and out of place to me. I guess their existing relationship would allow that kind of jump on a second run-through but as it was it was jarring to me in the theater. Wouldn’t that level of fraternization be frowned upon? Destroyed planets maybe allow for the exception, I guess.

As someone else said, Pine was the best Kirk one could be without doing a Shatner impression. Although, he did get beat up in this movie a little too much for my taste. Did he ever win a fight? Bar fight? Loss. Mining drillThere needed to be a little more reason for him to be the cocky ass we all love. Apparently those test scores were enough to foster a lifetime of self-assured swagger.

To the other extreme, Karl Urban did a perfect Deforest Kelly, and it also was fantastic. He chewed through scenery in a manner that Connery would be proud of.

Scotty was actually the weakest part of the film, although he himself was plenty good. They had to have a way to get Spock Prime together with nuKirk away from NuSpock and then get them back together that also fosters the budding Urhura/Spock/Kirk Love triangle… and I have gone cross-eyed. I liked the wee fellow, though. Nothing Jar Jar-esque at all. Thank Lucas there were no fart jokes though. Archer’s dog was a fantastic bit. I am surprised I haven’t read anyone here comment on the Slusho drink from the bar scene, with a nod to the Cloverfield crowd.

The humor was great. My GF described the Pegg in a Tube as Abrams getting “Wonka-vision”.

My long ramble is finally at an end. PLEASE MORE ST: Alternate Universe SOON. I didn’t spoil this for myself for a change and was really glad. Now if I can just get through those DVR’ed Losts soon, the online world will be opened back up to me.

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I meant to mention that. Somewhere in the middle, I caught myself marveling at how wonderful each one was in their role and also wonder how casting folks can do so great a job. I guess they do not ALWAYS get it right for every film, but it sure takes some unique talent/skills that I cannot fathom in that they can look into the script and project how a certain actor can so outstandingly perform.

I certainly could have used more Pegg, but as I left I was comforted by the thought that we will get to see more of him in sequels.

Also, if done wrong, the humor and injection of well-known lines could have been too goofy or awkward, with a few minor exceptions (a couple of the TOO well know lines seemed forced, “I’m a doctor…” but there was no way around that), it all flowed nicely.

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The USS Intrepid, referenced in the original series episode The Immunity Syndrome had an all-Vulcan crew.

I would imagine the reason you don’t see more Vulcans is that being stuck on a relatively small ship among the other “emotionally challenged” species is too much of a headache for the average pointy-eared “superman”.

Kirk wouldn’t develop his two super moves, the two handed hammer hit and the flying iowa dead weight drop, until much later.

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I admit I wasn’t paying attention to the attacking race in the film as I was too enraptured with the awesomeness of the scene. I giggled!

Mind-bogglingly good casting job. Uhura was arguably the weakest, but there was only so much to her character to begin with so it’s hardly an indictment. Karl Urban’s Bones barely wins by a grumpy, sarcastic hair IMO, barely edging out the rest. Scotty was perhaps a little too lackadaisical, Sulu a little too bland, Chekov a little too adorable, and Spock a little too…smirky. Not that he didn’t do a fantastic job otherwise, but he seemed to be on the verge of smiling in some shots.

How all the crew meets up is pretty contrived, really. I suppose that beats the hell out of “Ensign Sulu reporting for duty Sir!” for everyone as they accept their new assignments aboard the Enterprise. I mean that’s not very legendary.