Star Citizen - Chris Roberts, lots of spaceship porn, lots of promises

[Lantz]

So does that mean that if they release a product that fulfills the original kickstarter pitch combined with the stretch goals (some of which are trivially small or already fulfilled), then you will no longer consider the game deplorable or a con job?

I think this is one of the fundamental disconnects here. I don’t see the stretch goals at trivially small or already fulfilled. The amount of conceptual promised features they announce absolutely overwhelms the pace that they are delivering things. If they are going to actually add all the things that they have promised I honestly think it would take them 5+ years at their pace.

When do you think someone who put down $900 in 2015 for an Endeavor will get to actually play it with just the announced modules fully implemented (med bay, farming including things like hunting down new species and things, telescope thing, etc)? 2018? 2019? I honestly can’t imagine it is before 2020. So they are selling promises for things that they aren’t even going to start for years with artificial deadlines to get your money in? Why? Why is a pricing model where I have to pay for something unseen based on 10 cool artist renderings and a 10 second video literal years before I can use it more consumer friendly than me being able to buy it when it actually exists and I can see that I like it?

The part that is ‘ponzi’ scheme’-like is collecting money for things and actually using it for other things. They are taking in all this money for speculative content for 2020 but actually using that money for their 2012 pitched ‘product’. As their original ‘product’ falls further and further behind they double, triple, quadruple down on the amazing scope of this far future content to pull in money to spend actually just getting the original game done.

In another thread here, I was lauding Battlefleet Gothic: Armada for their pre-order system. They go the other way, you get the ‘pre-order’ bonuses up to 2 months after release. That is a company that has an actual product that they are confident in. They don’t have to try and force people into throwing money into the pool early, people can if they want to, but they can also wait for a review and still get in. That’s consumer friendly.

[AntediluvianArk]

When I saw the futuristic sliding door in their offices I realized that they are selling a brand and a cult of personality more than a deliverable game.

-Todd

[Ryan_Kelly]

That is an important difference. The people that pay the base price for the 1.0 game will be reaping the benefit of the people paying hundreds or thousands for ships. If the $60 players get a great game, then they made out. I can’t even imagine what kind of game would need to ship to actually be worth the prices some people are paying.

This can be said for every Kickstarted game. I bought Divinity: Original Sin for $40 and reaped the benefit of the 4 people who paid $2,500. Someone who read Tom’s Chaos Reborn review and decided to buy it for $20 reaped the benefit of the person who spent $10,000 on it and the 18 people who spent $1,000. I’m sure some readers saw Qt3’s 2015 GOTY list and bought Massive Chalice for $20, and they too reaped the benefit of the 4 people who spent $10,000 on it.

Those are all great games, but are any of them worth $1,000+ even when you add the various backer perks?

My point was that people didn’t pony up that kind of cash because they thought it was a good deal. They loved the developers and their pitch, and they wanted to go above and beyond to support their craft.

I think this is one of the fundamental disconnects here. I don’t see the stretch goals at trivially small or already fulfilled. The amount of conceptual promised features they announce absolutely overwhelms the pace that they are delivering things. If they are going to actually add all the things that they have promised I honestly think it would take them 5+ years at their pace.

You seemed to have missed an important word in the post you’re quoting. Some of the stretch goals are trivially small or already fulfilled.

The part that is ‘ponzi’ scheme’-like is collecting money for things and actually using it for other things. They are taking in all this money for speculative content for 2020 but actually using that money for their 2012 pitched ‘product’. As their original ‘product’ falls further and further behind they double, triple, quadruple down on the amazing scope of this far future content to pull in money to spend actually just getting the original game done.

The scope hasn’t increased that much since 2014. With each stretch goal they made an additional commitment to the backers to coincide with an increase in funding and manpower, and they have acknowledged that they are bound to those commitments.

[Telefrog]

This can be said for every Kickstarted game. I bought Divinity: Original Sin for $40 and reaped the benefit of the 4 people who paid $2,500. Someone who read Tom’s Chaos Reborn review and decided to buy it for $20 reaped the benefit of the person who spent $10,000 on it and the 18 people who spent $1,000. I’m sure some readers saw Qt3’s 2015 GOTY list and bought Massive Chalice for $20, and they too reaped the benefit of the 4 people who spent $10,000 on it.

Those are all great games, but are any of them worth $1,000+?

The difference to me is that people pledging $1000 in those Kickstarters are knowingly entering into a deal that gives them an item (the meet & greet, their picture in the game, etc) that is deliverable. Even if Divinity or Massive Chalice had turned out to be trainwrecks, the people pledging a huge amount would’ve gotten whatever it was they were promised. Fly up and spend a day at the studio! Dinner with the lead designer! These weren’t pie in the sky deals. They were realistic and frankly nothing out of the ordinary and the money being asked for wasn’t unreasonable for the experiences offered.

The people buying super-expensive ships that will supposedly have multi-crew gameplay have a much higher probability of never getting what they were promised. The base game isn’t close to being feature complete, and these ships are going to come with dynamic mining or farming gameplay modules? That’s sketchy as hell coming from a developer that appears to be spending a bunch of money on doorways, CG ads made to look like car commercials, and hiring expensive actors to mo-cap. If these ships ever get delivered, I seriously doubt that the gameplay modules will be anywhere near as awesome as the way they were marketed. Best case scenario: They come with some boring minigames that most people will end up ignoring in favor of using the automated systems. In the meanwhile what do these big ship owners get? A false sense of satisfaction at “owning” the promise of a virtual ship.

Edit: Additionally, the Kickstarter enthusiast offers are usually pretty limited from what I’ve seen. Only a handful of slots for people to spend $500 and up per project. RSI on the other hand, is issuing scrip. That $15,000 “complete” package is open-ended for all anyone knows. They’ll keep selling them as long as people are willing to buy them.

[MMDuran]

As for its financial success, well, there are several reasons, I’m sure. But the quality of the studio’s game design isn’t one of them. See also the conventional wisdom about fools and their money. No offense intended to Star Citizen backers, as I’ve certainly spent money on some questionable things. By the way, does anyone want to buy a used copy of a $200 miniatures boondoggle with Sandy Petersen’s name on the box called Cthulhu Wars?

Aw, Tom. I get the context in terms of fools and their money and all that, but mentioning Cthulhu Wars in the same thread as Star Citizen is wince-inducing. At least that game done got released by its developer and regardless of what you think of the quality of the game, the minis are in themselves comparable in quality and cost to $200 dropped on a smaller amount of Games Workshop Warhammer 40k miniatures (and that game’s terrible if you want to reinsert the game quality). It’s a bummer to see its name associated with the Star Citizen rolling fiasco, even in passing reference. ;-)

[KevinC]

This can be said for every Kickstarted game. I bought Divinity: Original Sin for $40 and reaped the benefit of the 4 people who paid $2,500.

Clearly you see the massive fucking difference here, right? Divinity:Original Sin was a game that stayed on track and is a released, finished, product. Star Citizen’s development continues to drag on with little to show for it and a release nowhere in sight. Yet with a hundred million dollars, they still keep going back to the well and soliciting for more money.

I mean, Divinity:Original Sin’s kickstarter started after Star Citizen. After raising $900,000 via the Kickstarter, they have since shipped a game, developed a (very nice) Enhanced Edition, and are hard at work on Original Sin 2.

If D:OS was still in development hell and all these years later they still kept going back to customers trying to get another $300 or $800 or $1200 out of them, all the while promising yet more new features, I can guarantee the people skeptical in this thread would be equally skeptical of that game.

[Lantz]

The scope hasn’t increased that much since 2014. With each stretch goal they made an additional commitment to the backers to coincide with an increase in funding and manpower, and they have acknowledged that they are bound to those commitments.

Like I said, this is a fundamental disconnect. I am not trying to convince you to my side, I was just trying to explain my perspective and why I (and a lot of others here) have such a different view. I think the scope has massively increased, I don’t think there’s any chance they deliver their all promises inside of 2020. You disagree. I don’t think I can argue you to have a different perspective. I am just framing why there’s all the negative talk around this game. I think they are promising things that they know they can’t deliver because it’s the easy way to keep the money rolling in. You don’t. That’s fine, I have no secret insider info to prove I am right.

[sharaleo]

KS features, stretch goals, add-ons and other additional goals listed up to $10 million on the SC website, which was 26 March 2013. Obviously there are a ton of additional goals through until the end of 2014.

Curious as to what could be considered delivered.

There will be some duplication as it comes from both the KS page and their website and I did not vet it too hard. Also some stuff is of course described in high level only or is fundamentally attached to PU.

I have no idea exactly which digital stuff has been released (at least to the Hangar/baby PU modules), or which physical rewards have actually shipped, but it may be an interesting exercise to tick them off for shits and giggles.

Another interesting thing would be to compare to any stuff that has even been demonstrated. Like proper demonstrated, not rendered marketing screenshots.

Kickstarter Features:
A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU)
No Subscriptions
No Pay to Win
A huge universe to explore, trade and adventure in
Constantly expanding and evolving universe
Micro updates rule!
Squadron 42 - A Wing Commander style single player mode, playable OFFLINE if you want
Actions of the players impact the universe and become part of its history and lore
Allowing user generated content is a key design goal
Social Divisions and Factions
Fully dynamic economy driven by player actions
Multi-crew ships
Full rigid body simulation of all spaceships
Intelligent Flight Control System (IFCS)
Ship Performance affected by condition of components
10X the detail of current AAA games - more polyfons than normal AAA
Everything you would imagine would move or articulate on a spaceship or a device – does!
Joystick, gamepad, mouse, keyboard are all supported.
Advanced peripheral support
Virtual Reality Support

Kickstarter Stretch:
Tablet Companion App
Increased Community Updates
Monthly Town Hall with CR
Celebrity Voice Acting for SQ42
50 Missions
70 Star Systems for SC
100 Star Systems for SC
Bengal carrier for SC
Full Orchestral Score for SC and SQ42 with Soundtrack
SQ42 Mission Disk, Behind Enemy Lines, free to all backers on release

Kickstarter Add-Ons:
Digital Electro Skin Hull Enhancement +$5
Exploration Skin: +$5
Military Skin: +$5
Blackbeard Stealth Skin: +$5
False Colors Skin: +$5
Add-On Ship: Aurora +$25
Add-On Ship: 300i +$55
Add-On Ship: Hornet +$110
Add-On Ship: Freelancer +$110
Add-On Ship: Constellation +$225
Digital Download: Star Map +$5
Digital Download: Full Star Citizen Soundtrack +$10
Digital Download: 42 page book “Squadron 42 Manual” +$10
Digital Download: 42 page book “The Making of Star Citizen” +$10
Digital Download: 42 page book “Engineering Manual for Modders” +$10
Digital Download: Star Citizen Novella written by Dave Haddock, the man behind the Time Capsule and Spectrum Dispatch lore. (delivery TBA) +$15
“Star Citizen” t-shirt [$25]
“Squadron 42” t-shirt [$25]
“Shut Up and Take My Money” [$5]
Addon Ship: Anvil Gladiator Bomber [$150]
Addon Ship: ORIGIN M50 Interceptor [$85]
Addon Ship: MISC Starfarer Tanker [$175]
Addon Ship: Drake Interplanetary Caterpillar ($225)
Addon Ship: Retaliator Heavy Bomber [$250]
Addon Ship: Vanduul Fighter [$300]
Addon Ship: Idris-class Corvette [$1000]
Fold up glossy full color map of the game universe +$10
CD of game soundtrack +$20
Hardback bound 42 Page Book “Squadron 42 Manual” +$20
Hardback bound 42 page Book “Engineering Manual for Modders” +$20
Hardback bound 42 page book “The Making of Star Citizen” +$25
Spaceship shaped USB stick +$30

Non Kickstarter Stretch Goals up to $10 Million:
Regular community updates.
Citizens with appropriate packages will get to play in the multiplayer dogfighting module.
Citizens with appropriate packages will receive access to the 30-mission Squadron 42 campaign upon release.
Star Citizen will feature an additional flyable ship, the Anvil Gladiator.
Increased community updates at the RSI website.
Squadron 42 will feature 35 missions.
Citizens with appropriate packages will receive access to the Star Citizen universe with 40 star systems for persistent online play upon release.
Star Citizen will feature an additional flyable ship, the MISC Starfarer.
Cockpit decorations – Turn your stock cockpit into your home with personalized decorations; amaze your friends with bobbleheads, photographs, dinosaurs, fuzzy dice, nose art, posters and many more cool options!
Ship boarding – learn more about how Star Citizen will allow players to conduct boarding operations.
Star Citizen will feature an additional flyable ship, the Aegis Dynamics Retaliator.
A new star system will be added to the game for every $100,000 pledged, with descriptions posted to the Comm-Link.

• $3.1M: Odin System
• $3.2M: Tyrol System
• $3.3M: Kellog System
• $3.4M: Goss System
• $3.5M: Orion System
• $3.6M: Ellis System
• $3.7M: Cathcart System
• $3.8M: Tal System
• $3.9M: Geddon System
• $4.0M: Chronos System
  The RSI website will feature a monthly “Wingman’s Hangar” webcast from the development team.
  Professional mod tools will be provided free to all players.
  Squadron 42 will feature a richer storyline and 45 total missions.
  Star Citizen will launch with 50 star systems and feature an additional flyable ship, the Drake Interplanetary Cutlass.Star Citizen will launch with 60 star systems.
  Star Citizen will feature an additional playable ship class, the cruiser.
  All Kickstarter goals unlocked
  All backers before October 29, 2012 will start Star Citizen with a Class I Repair Bot in their garage.
  All backers before November 8, 2012 will start Star Citizen with 500 additional credits.
  Extended hardcore flight sim controller support: Flight Chairs, multiple monitors, Track-IR, MFD (Multi Function Displays) and more on launch.
  Star Citizen will feature four additional playable ship classes: Idris class corvette, Origin M50, Drake Interplanetary Caterpillar and destroyers.
  Star Citizen will feature two additional base types: Vanduul trading posts and hidden smuggler asteroids.
  Star Citizen will feature an additional alien race, the Kr’Thak.
  Enhanced boarding options: melee combat, heavy weapons, zero gravity simulation, suit HUD options and EVA combat.
  Increased ship customization.
  Tablet companion application to check on your inventory, commission or find missions and get the galactic news feed.
  The RSI webcast will feature a monthly Town Hall Q&A with Chris Roberts
  Squadron 42 will feature celebrity voice-acting including at least one favorite from Wing Commander and 50 total missions.
  Star Citizen will launch with 70 star systems.
  Star Citizen will feature an additional base type. Can you discover the alien derelict?
  Professional motion capture for the Squadron 42 cutscenes.
  Exclusive RECORD BREAKER ship skin and 1000 additional credits on launch for all backers who pledge before the $5.5 million stretch goal.
  Star Citizen will feature the Bengal carrier as a playable ship class.Star Citizen will launch with 100 star systems.
  The Bengal carrier will be unlocked for persistent universe play.
  Star Citizen and Squadron 42 will feature a full orchestral score.
  The first Squadron 42 mission disk, Behind Enemy Lines, will be available for free to all backers who pledge before $6 million upon release.
  All backers who pledge before June 28, 2013 will receive a Roberts Space Industries Class II space suit in their hangar.
  Cloud Imperium Games will build their own mocap studio to improve the quality of Star Citizen and Squadron 42’s cutscenes.

[Ryan_Kelly]

The difference to me is that people pledging $1000 in those Kickstarters are knowingly entering into a deal that gives them an item (the meet & greet, their picture in the game, etc) that is deliverable. Even if Divinity or Massive Chalice had turned out to be trainwrecks, the people pledging a huge amount would’ve gotten whatever it was they were promised. Fly up and spend a day at the studio! Dinner with the lead designer! These weren’t pie in the sky deals. They were realistic and frankly nothing out of the ordinary and the money being asked for wasn’t unreasonable for the experiences offered.

That’s fine if we view it differently. I personally wouldn’t consider $10,000 for a studio visit worth it unless I was head over heels for their vision and wanted to throw my money at it (and I was rich).

Clearly you see the massive fucking difference here, right? Divinity:Original Sin was a game that stayed on track and is a released, finished, product. Star Citizen’s development continues to drag on with little to show for it and a release nowhere in sight. Yet with a hundred million dollars, they still keep going back to the well and soliciting for more money.

I mean, Divinity:Original Sin’s kickstarter started after Star Citizen. After raising $900,000 via the Kickstarter, they have since shipped a game, developed a (very nice) Enhanced Edition, and are hard at work on Original Sin 2.

If D:OS was still in development hell and all these years later they still kept going back to customers trying to get another $300 or $800 or $1200 out of them, all the while promising yet more new features, I can guarantee the people skeptical in this thread would be equally skeptical of that game.

Sataball is the only new feature I can recall them promising since the final stretch goal at the end of 2014. Also, it seems like the majority of kickstarters I’ve backed somewhat recently take slacker backers well after the the initial campaign is over. I didn’t back D:OS so I don’t know if they stopped selling pledges after the Kickstarter ended.

I think the scope has massively increased

Since 2014?

I have no idea exactly which digital stuff has been released (at least to the Hangar/baby PU modules), or which physical rewards have actually shipped, but it may be an interesting exercise to tick them off for shits and giggles

I might actually torture myself and tick them off.

[AntediluvianArk]

Wow “10X the detail of current AAA games”!!

-Todd

[Telefrog]

That’s fine if we view it differently. I personally wouldn’t consider $10,000 for a studio visit worth it unless I was head over heels for their vision and wanted to throw my money at it (and I was rich).

But you understand the difference, right? In one example, you give $X and they let you visit the studio, stick your face in the game, or have dinner with the lead. That can be done at any time and is realistically and easily accomplished. In RSI’s example, they’re selling a ship that doesn’t exist, that comes with crew gameplay that doesn’t exist, for a game that hasn’t even officially launched with the base pitch features.

There’s a deep and wide valley between those two.

[lordkosc]

So much to read, goodness… Ok so is anything planned to release this year that will be considered complete?

[KevinC]

Sataball is the only new feature I can recall them promising since the final stretch goal at the end of 2014. Also, it seems like the majority of kickstarters I’ve backed somewhat recently take slacker backers well after the the initial campaign is over. I didn’t back D:OS so I don’t know if they stopped selling pledges after the Kickstarter ended.

The point I was originally (clumsily) trying to make was that it’s not high dollar pledges that is the problem (at least for me). You’re correct in that D:OS and pretty much every other Kickstarter has them. I get that, as it’s a patronage sort of thing.

Things are different here, though. We’re talking about a project that has raised $110 million dollars and is lagging very far behind the original schedule that is still trying to raise more money via thousand dollar ships. It sets off all kinds of alarm bells and red flags for me, it all seems very… scammy. Not only is the release not imminent, but from my understanding a lot of the ships they’re selling aren’t even going to be usable in 1.0, it’s going to be some other nebulous date further down the line.

I can’t speak for anyone else but I certainly don’t want this game to fail. Part of it is selfish and I’d love an awesome space sim. The other part is that I’d hate to see it fail because I’m really worried about how much money some people are pouring into this thing. I mean if someone has millions of dollars then more power to them, but I think you and I both know that’s not all who are buying these ships.

As someone (sorry for lack of attribution) mentioned above, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. I don’t necessarily think Chris Roberts is intentionally trying to run a scam or a con, but I do think this project has many, many signs of being deeply in trouble. The effort involved in soliciting even more money after raising $110 million is one of them. I’m not trying to get you to agree with my opinion (because that’s all it is), just know that’s why some of us hold that sort of opinion.

[Ryan_Kelly]

But you understand the difference, right? In one example, you give $X and they let you visit the studio, stick your face in the game, or have dinner with the lead. That can be done at any time and is realistically and easily accomplished. In RSI’s example, they’re selling a ship that doesn’t exist, that comes with crew gameplay that doesn’t exist, for a game that hasn’t even officially launched with the base pitch features.

There’s a deep and wide valley between those two.

I understand that it is riskier because the pledge level is tied to in-game assets, but your original post implied that it is impossible to create virtual rewards that are “worth it” for the money spent. And my response was that high-level backers for every Kickstarted game contribute for reasons other than the value of the top-level rewards themselves.

To your point that people who pay for a studio visit “know what they are getting”, people who pay for a virtual spaceship also know what they are supposed to get. The difference is that you believe they will not get it.

[BrianRubin]

Ryan, I have an honest question for you.

I’m likely one of the biggest space game addicts you’ll ever meet, and yet I couldn’t keep my optimism for this game going for a variety of reasons.

What keeps you so optimistic about this game, even in the face of all the doubt and skepticism present here?

[Telefrog]

To your point that people who pay for a studio visit “know what they are getting”, people who pay for a virtual spaceship also know what they are supposed to get. The difference is that you believe they will not get it.

No, the difference is that if I tell you you’ll get dinner with the developer and get to visit the studio for a day and play the in-progress game, that’s pretty cut and dried. You can quibble over the accommodations or the quality of the meal, but the promised goods in exchange for the money is right there. In contrast, the buyers of the multi-crew ships in Star Citizen don’t really know what they will (if ever) get. The crew gameplay is only vaguely outlined in the design docs that have been published. The game that it all hangs on even isn’t done.

[KWhit]

I can’t imagine anyone spending hundreds of dollars on a computer game that doesn’t even exist yet.

[Timex]

No, the difference is that if I tell you you’ll get dinner with the developer and get to visit the studio for a day and play the in-progress game, that’s pretty cut and dried. You can quibble over the accommodations or the quality of the meal, but the promised goods in exchange for the money is right there. In contrast, the buyers of the multi-crew ships in Star Citizen don’t really know what they will (if ever) get. The crew gameplay is only vaguely outlined in the design docs that have been published. The game that it all hangs on even isn’t done.

Well, you can actually play the multicrew ships today. You just don’t know the entirety of what you’ll eventually get. But you can, currently, have people get in a ship, fly around, man different stations and guns, and engage in space combat.

[Ryan_Kelly]

but from my understanding a lot of the ships they’re selling aren’t even going to be usable in 1.0, it’s going to be some other nebulous date further down the line.

Do you have a source for this? They’re actually currently focusing on the giant, most expensive capital ships right now, so I would expect those to be in 1.0.

I don’t necessarily think Chris Roberts is intentionally trying to run a scam or a con, but I do think this project has many, many signs of being deeply in trouble. The effort involved in soliciting even more money after raising $110 million is one of them. I’m not trying to get you to agree with my opinion (because that’s all it is), just know that’s why some of us hold that sort of opinion.

I understand why you hold that sort of opinion, and I understand that the only thing which will change your mind is a finished game. However, sometimes I notice people posting things that I think are incorrect based on the attention I give to the game’s development as a backer. I think it would be a shame if the well was poisoned with inaccurate information.

Ryan, I have an honest question for you.

I’m likely one of the biggest space game addicts you’ll ever meet, and yet I couldn’t keep my optimism for this game going for a variety of reasons.

What keeps you so optimistic about this game, even in the face of all the doubt and skepticism present here?

I watch every 10 For the Chairman, read every (extensive) monthly progress report, check all of the developer posts, and play every update to the Alpha. I see a game that has expanded in scope considerably from 2012-2014 and has been delayed substantially as a result. I haven’t concluded that the game is cancelled or being rushed out the door. I think Wing Commander and Freelancer are great games and would like Roberts to design another game (just as I would like Brian Reynolds to design another non-mobile game).

No, the difference is that if I tell you you’ll get dinner with the developer and get to visit the studio for a day and play the in-progress game, that’s pretty cut and dried. You can quibble over the accommodations or the quality of the meal, but the promised goods in exchange for the money is right there. In contrast, the buyers of the multi-crew ships in Star Citizen don’t really know what they will (if ever) get. The crew gameplay is only vaguely outlined in the design docs that have been published. The game that it all hangs on even isn’t done.

So if the multi-crew gameplay is shit, the backers got screwed. If it’s good, all is well. Seems reasonable to me, and yes I know which outcome you are anticipating.

[BrianRubin]

I watch every 10 For the Chairman, read every (extensive) monthly progress report, check all of the developer posts, and play every update to the Alpha. I see a game that has expanded in scope considerably from 2012-2014 and has been delayed substantially. I haven’t concluded that the game is cancelled or being rushed out the door. I think Wing Commander and Freelancer are great games and would like Roberts to design another game (just as I would like Brian Reynolds to design another non-mobile game).

Huh, I guess we’re having different reactions, because I read all those things too, and I just get less and less convinced this will come out before 2020 the more I read.