I had refrained from posting in this thread, opting - as I normally do - to just lurk (as I do in several forums that I visit).

But you and your clown friends continue to do what you always do. Make shit up out of whole cloth. Just because you can, and because the only way to argue this train-wreck of a project, is to harass, attack, and otherwise try to shout down dissenters. Because, somewhere in an underdeveloped brain, attacking someone because they say bad stuff about Star Citizen, somehow makes it a “game”, and not the scam, train wreck, and laughing stock that it already is.

Here’s the thing,

  1. Everyone on the planet who knows anything about me, from way back in the day to now, knows one thing. I am fiercely independent. I do everything that I can to keep it that way. As such, my company, 3000AD INC has never - ever - had investors, nor partners, nor profit sharing, or anything of the kind. I own the company 100% today, as I did when I formed it back in 1992. The filings are all public record in FL, and there are no SEC filings or anything in any dB that says my company has any investors - of any kind.

  2. And as noted in the AZ public records, I am an investor and LLC managing partner in Quest Online. I bought into that company after the Alganon project was in distress and I was invited to invest in, and subsequently run the company. I am one of three remaining investors, and the only one currently funding the project/company. And this happened long before the two lawsuits filed against us investors - and which went nowhere - by the previous president of the company, and creator of the project. As 3000AD has a controlling interest in Quest Online, that’s why the Alganon game appears under the 3000AD label on Steam, and wherever the game is sold.

I am not going to invite you to cite the sources of the bullshit you posted, because that would be a waste of my time as no such thing exists.

Here’s the thing. It’s better to just call me names, attack me etc; but making up shit for the heck of it, thinking I won’t see it, thus you can get a “dig” for you and your dumb buddies to get a lol from, is the sort of thing that gets you laughed it.

Stop it. Defend Star Citizen all you want; it is immaterial and inconsequential to me. But as long as you toxic lunatics continue to attack dissenters, we’ll just carry on pointing and laughing.

The only people to whom this loan makes sense, are the backers who 1) have their heads buried in the sand 2) know nothing about f(x) 3) want to continue down-playing the seriousness of this loan because they know - without a doubt - that it shows a very serious problem.

Before I wrote my article and Tweet about it, ahead of my extensive Final Countdown blog (updated yesterday with financials), nobody but us Goons (on SA) knew about this loan. As soon as I Tweeted it, then followed up with my blog article, the Internet exploded.

I was also the one who reported on the 1st loan. As well as Erin Roberts significant and overinflated salary, as well as their cash out which they took in 2015 by buying themselves out of the company with backer money.

They are cash strapped. The loan makes absolutely no sense other than they pledged the entire fucking company for what amounts to a payday loan from a dodgy bank.

These people are going to be down playing this until we get the sudden and final collapse. Because obviously they just arrived on planet Earth, and they have no idea how these things go.

Earlier today I tweeted the best synopsis I have seen thus far of what they’ve done here:

Borrowing money to fund continuous expenditure ain’t a great sign. I mean, they’re borrowing money to spend so they can claim tax rebates on the borrowed money to repay the borrowed money, while being charged interest.”

Hahahaha. That’s what I said when I read this. Thank you, @KevinC.

Carry on, wayward sons.

Read my Final Countdown blog on this. I laid it out clearly. And that was after running it through attorney and CFO friends. Even a few bankers have chimed in.

The bank owns it. They gave F42/CIG permission to work on and sell their own fucking game. And that’s for as long as they don’t pay off this loan. Yes, it’s fucking amazing that people think that a bank would secure the assets of TWO companies over a measly tax credit, when - as other normal lenders do - they could just secure the actual tax credit itself. My blog has a complete list and break down of the security.

This may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen written on corporate lending. None of this is true. None of it.

Here is reality:

  • banks don’t lend to insolvent companies. The fact that a software company was able to get a loan from a financial institution is actually a positive sign.
  • no bank would ever give any loan or credit facility without registering a general security interest covering all assets of the borrower. It would be impossible to get a loan from a financial institution otherwise.
  • similarly, negative covenants are completely standard terms of any loan or credit facility.

To be clear: I have very little faith in Star Citizen, so I’m not commenting on the current state of the project. But almost all the reporting on this “loan” development has been completely wrong and has often drawn the exact opposite conclusions warranted.

I don’t believe that anyone is saying they’re insolvent. At least not yet.

Fact (for those of us who follow it religiously) is, they get funding from 1) parent company in the US 2) EU sales paid directly into UK 3) loans (they have two secured ones now, and about $5m in unsecured)

The notion that banks don’t lend to “insolvent” companies isn’t remotely true. Look up debt refinancing. Or even recapitalization funding and similar vehicles.

The issue with collateral is that, in all cases of secured lending, yes, the bank secures the company assets. But here’s the thing (I cover this in my blog), like the funding of 529, lottery winnings, insurance (accident, life etc) claims, the secured assets are those. Nothing else. So if you have money in a lottery that you want to borrow against, rather than taking the huge hit on a lump sum, a company can loan you money - secured against that winning. The same happens with tax credits - every where they are offered. Heck, there is an entire movie industry dedicated to specifically this sort of lending against all kinds of art/movie credits including arts, movies etc.

The issue with this SC loan is that the bank secured ALL the assets of TWO companies. The parent company, CIG, a well as the sub, F42). They have a secured interest in the tax credit. They didn’t need anything else. And there are several companies in the UK - as evidenced by those who have posted about this since this news broke - that take loans on these tax credits ALL THE TIME. And they don’t have to put up such security against it.

In this instance, in exchange for such a small sum, for a company which, according to its 2016 filing burns through almost $20m a year, it’s a huge Red flag that they need the money now, rather than six months from now. And were willing to pledge ALL these assets in order to get it.

The bank - who would be privy to their financials - obviously figured out that they ran the risk of being insolvent ahead of them “earning” the tax credit. So they secured all their assets just in case.

WARNING: copy pasta coming up…

Ask yourself this :

  1. In what world does a company that has raised over $152 million in crowd-funding, with an unknown amount of investor money and US loans, need to so desperately need to play the currency market to the extent that they have to take what is, for all intent and purposes, a high-risk loan, against “future” tax credits? And an amount which – assuming we believe Ortwin that it was against the tax credits – is a measly $4m?

  2. Go check the currency conversion, and do the math. It would be cheaper – and zero risk (no collateral needed) – for the US to continue funding UK ops while the USD is stronger against the GBP.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit or any of that nonsense.

And there isn’t a single accountant or CFO who, knowing the circumstances, would agree that taking a $4m loan, that pledges the current and future assets for two ENTIRE companies (F42/CIG), is a good idea. Especially where a govt. tax credit – which fluctuates – is concerned.

In fact, someone else – a banker – already did the math and analysis. It’s in my blog update. Go read it.

  1. If this was just about tax credits, isn’t it curious that, like with other companies, the collateral would just be for the tax credits? Why would a $4m loan be collateralized against a multi-million dollar studio assets? And not just some assets, but EVERY SINGLE THING? Could it be that the bank, who would be the best entity to know the financial state of the companies, know something that the public – and backers – don’t know? As in, it’s a huge risk because the company is on shaky financial ground, so we’d better secure everything – just in case?

Note that we don’t even know if it’s just $4m. It could be several years of future tax credits, which would be applicable for as long as the company is solvent, and they are spending the amounts that warrant the max tax credit amount.

And no, the govt. doesn’t cut you a check for your tax credit. Jesus Christ, I’ve seen people type up that rubbish all weekend. I am not going to explain. So look up what tax credits are, how they work, and how they are applied. It’s not rocket science. You just need the ability to read and comprehend what’s written in public docs – right there on the FSA website.

BONUS: You know they have already been using the tax credits, right? Go read their 2016 filing. They never took out a loan against it. Until now. Why is that? Take a wild guess. Then give yourself a cookie if you guessed that it’s because they NEED the money – NOW.

  1. Why, even though it’s all RIGHT THERE in the filing, are people saying that the collateral was just for the “tax credits”, when the bank was thorough enough to list THREE FREAKING PAGES outlining the collateral, and which amounts to EVERYTHING the studios own now or in the future (until the loan is paid off)?

To the extent that the bank has complete control over, not only the company assets, but also assumes ownership and control of the assets – including the games they are working on – and grants back the studio the license/rights to exploit those assets. You know why that sounds familiar? It’s because that’s what happens when you get a mortgage or car loan. You don’t own the assets for as long as you owe the bank. So the bank gives you permission to use those assets, and they can take them back at any time if you fail to make payments.

So yes, win, lose, or draw, CIG/F42 basically mortgaged assets that backers poured $152 million into. It really is THAT simple. Again, it’s not rocket science.

And they did it without disclosing it. It only became public when I wrote about it. And of course it was concerning enough that Ortwin – not Chris – had to come out on a Sunday to spin doctor it, though his statement completely confirms precisely what they did: took a high-risk loan, against a asset which is worthless for all intent and purposes because unless and until they complete ONE of these games, there is NO INTRINSIC VALUE and the bank can’t use them as collateral.

Look at this way way. There is no bank, investor, or publisher, who would look at this project, and pay $152 million (let’s ignore the investor money and loans for now) for it. Why? Because there’s nothing “there”. Like, at all.

  1. I left the best for last. Anyone who has more than two brain cells and actually READ all 29 pages of the filing, can easily see that Star Citizen is excluded in “name” only; and that since SQ42 is built from EVERYTHING that was developed for Star Citizen, everything the bank listed for SQ42, by extension, also ties up engine, tech, media etc of Star Citizen because, aside from unique music and performance art (mocap for cut scenes), there is NO SQ42 without Star Citizen. Do you think if the loan defaults, the bank is going to take everything, and all of a sudden there’s going to be a Star Citizen “game” left untouched, and CIG/F42 can just carry on developing that game, having stiffed the bank, like it’s perfectly OK? LOL!!!

The notion that “Oh, the collateral doesn’t include Star Citizen, we’re OK” is as hilarious as it is stupid. That’s like taking out a loan on your car, but the bank says you can’t have the engine. But you’re OK with it.

The project is FUBAR. It is a total loss of backer money. And there is absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that I am wrong. And one day soon, we’ll be having this same discussion, right here, even as everyone starts playing armchair detective trying to figure out how it all went so wrong.

Just clarifying that what you quoted is a comment I pointed to, and I’m not the primary source of that information. I really liked the explanation of some of the terms I was not acquainted with, anyway.

Yes, I read the article subsequently - will edit when I can.

I’m not an expert at this, nor a lawyer, but I am an accountant who frequently works with banks and loan agreements, and I don’t see any way a company would agree to terms like this if they weren’t in dire straits. In my experience, you just don’t make deals like this unless you are desperate.

Novice to the thread here:

Is that collateral actually worth anything though? If the bank doesn’t get their money back, how are they going to get any money for a bunch of unconnected assets and artwork for a non-existent game?

Which terms, specifically, are you talking about?

Also a novice, but - in most cases I doubt the collateral would be worth much. In a game that’s already been funded for $150m and for which there are a lot of fans waiting anxiously for the release and primed to spend additional money on it, maybe there’s some value in finding another studio that could actually get something released.

Right, but I guess I can’t see anyone willing to shell out millions of dollars to buy those assets from the bank. The people who had developed it would presumably be gone, so I’m assuming someone would have start completely over. I’m wondering what actual value that collateral has. But banks aren’t dumb, so they’ve probably already figured this out.

Anyway, now I’m feeling bad for speculating on something I know nothing about. It’s just a question I had after reading the thread. I mean, cars and houses make sense as collateral, as they can be sold easily in the event of a default. I was just questioning how easily unfinished game assets could be sold, as those assets would presumably require people that knew exactly how to work with them to finish the project. This whole thing just boggles my mind.

No, it’s worthless. However, if you look in the filing images (in my blog), the bank made sure to list specific assets of value which include music, performance work (mocap etc) and similar. They know the “Game” isn’t complete, so they have no way of attaching value to it. And if it ever came to that, that’s why there are companies that specialize in such evaluations, and are employed during such purchases, BK assessments etc.

Also note that it’s not just the software. They attached every asset owned by the company. Which includes all the equipment and everything at their location. Considering how much they spent on that office, even with depreciation, there’s some value there.

This is also the reason why the bank did this blanket “floating” charge because they get security on everything that studio owns now, or will own in the future. And it’s both the CIG parent, as well as F42.

If the company becomes insolvent, the execs get to walk away and leave the bank holding the bag.

And if the bank ends up with a loss on their investment, even though none of the directors gave a personal guarantee, they can still go after them personally. Especially if the bank alleges fraud, or any such of “material omission”. e.g. the fact that SQ42 is built with Star Citizen tech, assets etc, but is excluded by name, is huge Red flag that will cause them problems if this loan defaults and the company collapses. Over here in the US, you will start hearing accusations of bank fraud - a very serious thing.

I believe he is referring to the company giving a fixed and floating charge on ALL its assets, in exchange for a loan against a tax credit.

Game assets get sold all the time. It depends on what state they are in. In my blog, I used 38 Studios as an example. They couldn’t sell the game or IP because it was in the state of development - and patently worthless. They were also asking a ridiculous price during the BK. They got no takers. If it was a finished game, or recognized IP worth something in “name” (e.g. see all Interplay’s IP rights which recently went up for sale), they would have sold it.

Problem is, the Star Citizen & Squadron 42 IP are so tainted with bad PR (and hosts some notoriously toxic members of its community), not to mention the $153m+ “delivery” liability now attached to it, that nobody would buy it. It would cost as much to finish the games. And even if someone bought it, without that liability (which the bank doesn’t have btw), they would end up with a lot of grief from backers who would expect a free game from whoever bought the assets.

Thank you for the informative commentary, Derek!

Pretty much, yeah. They pledged what seems an enormous amount for what is essentially a payday loan. It’s a lot to lose for very little payoff.

Yeah okay. That makes more sense, though even then I’m having a hard time envisioning office equipment and computers valued (used) in the multiple millions. But I haven’t seen their offices either. And I’m assuming they don’t own any real estate either, and are likely just leasing. Anyway, I was just trying to see this from the bank’s perspective. Thanks for the input.