Star Citizen - Chris Roberts, lots of spaceship porn, lots of promises

[Covenant72]

But like I said… the part of Star Citizen which actually already exists, is a better game on its own than Line of Defense.
Right now, you can play the Area Commander part of Star Citizen, which is basically a little arena space combat shooter, with a variety of ships and weapons, etc. They also have space racing built into it. There are a bunch of folks who play this on a daily basis. It is essentially a functional game, albeit much smaller in scope than the full Star Citizen vision.

Line of Defense, in contrast, is by all accounts unplayable. There are tons of videos posted by folks where it crashes constantly. Where folks have tried to review it, and been literally unable to actually play the game at all. Most of it is totally unfinished, with NPC’s who are essentially just static models that you can’t interact with at all. When you look on steam’s stats for the game the peak number of players for the past 30 days is FOUR. FOUR PLAYERS.

a little arena space shooter and space racing paid for with $90 million in crowd sourced funds.

[JonRowe]

I didn’t realize how completely over the “cheezburgers” thing I am.

Me too. Huh. I remember liking that stuff like 7 years ago.

Also, that picture collage vastly misrepresents CIG’s response to DS.

Also, could we have gotten DS’s lawyercat in that picture collage? I would love me some cat wearing a suit pictures.

[SlapBone]

a little arena space shooter and space racing paid for with $90 million in crowd sourced funds.

Yea, Congrats to Timex on his recent Kool-aid acquisition.

[rhamorim]

If only game development was driven by legal teams, then maybe Line of Defense wouldn’t be so terrible compared to Star Citizen.

You’re quite clearly not inclined to look at the whole thing from a fair, objective angle (rather than “Chris Roberts good! Derek Smart bad!”).

Well, have it your way. I heard the blue pill can be pure bliss. I wouldn’t know, because I took the red one.

EDIT (clarification): I mean red pill/blue pill as a reference to the concept found in the original Matrix movie, where the red pill means choosing to let go of the Matrix and face reality as it is, and the blue pill is the conscious decision to continue to live under an illusion. I wasn’t even aware it was used by Gamergate and MRA people until after I posted this, so keep that in mind before thinking I have anything to do with either group (since I don’t).

[ArmandoPenblade]

I didn’t realize how completely over the “cheezburgers” thing I am.

Oh holy fuck that was rough to get through.

Me too. Huh. I remember liking that stuff like 7 years ago.

Also, that picture collage vastly misrepresents CIG’s response to DS.

Also, could we have gotten DS’s lawyercat in that picture collage? I would love me some cat wearing a suit pictures.

See, Business Cat is a far superior meme to this cheezburger nonsense. He has poise, and class!

[Telefrog]

Well, have it your way. I heard the blue pill can be pure bliss. I wouldn’t know, because I took the red one.

Wait a minute. “Red pill?” Don’t we have enough GamerGate nonsense in here?

[rhamorim]

Wait a minute. “Red pill?” Don’t we have enough GamerGate nonsense in here?

I’m using red pill as a pure Matrix reference. I wasn’t even aware it was appropriated by MRA people until I decided to google it after seeing your post and being completely confused as to what you meant.

[Timex]

You’re quite clearly not inclined to look at the whole thing from a fair, objective angle (rather than “Chris Roberts good! Derek Smart bad!”).

Go look at Line of Defense yourself, and draw your own conclusion. Hell, I even posted some videos there so you can watch it if you don’t want to dig for yourself.
My description of it being absolutely terrible, by basically any standards at all, is not me somehow being unfair. And honestly, I doubt I would have even heard about it if not for Derek Smart making a big noise about star citizen.

But the hypocrisy of Smart is absolutely insane, when you look at the state of his own game. I mean, is THAT what constitutes a “finished game”? On steam it says its release was September of last year. Maybe CIG should just release whatever the fuck they have in their repository, and then it’ll be equal to what Derek thinks counts as complete.

[Galadin]

You’re quite clearly not inclined to look at the whole thing from a fair, objective angle (rather than “Chris Roberts good! Derek Smart bad!”).

Wait, this sounds like the exact same situation from you, just reverse the adjectives. In Timex’s defense, Star Citizen does have playable modules that you can boot up, play and enjoy today. Line of Defense doesn’t.

But, Star Citizen has MUCH higher expectations as well, since it did receive lots of funding and is expecting individual users to sometimes invest hundreds of dollars. This is compared to Line of Defense that doesn’t carry the same expectations going into it. Now, does this mean Line of Defense is doing better? Well, if a game is unplayable, can it be judged at all versus a game that is playable but missing many, many of its expected elements?

[Telefrog]

I’m using red pill as a pure Matrix reference. I wasn’t even aware it was appropriated by MRA people until I decided to google it after seeing your post and being completely confused as to what you meant.

I was just joking. I figured your post was more about The Matrix than anything else. I just thought it was funny that you happened to use that reference in this case what with all the GG accusations from Chris Roberts.

[rhamorim]

Wait, this sounds like the exact same situation from you, just reverse the adjectives. In Timex’s defense, Star Citizen does have playable modules that you can boot up, play and enjoy today. Line of Defense doesn’t.

But, Star Citizen has MUCH higher expectations as well, since it did receive lots of funding and is expecting individual users to sometimes invest hundreds of dollars. This is compared to Line of Defense that doesn’t carry the same expectations going into it. Now, does this mean Line of Defense is doing better? Well, if a game is unplayable, can it be judged at all versus a game that is playable but missing many, many of its expected elements?

He’s not wrong about Line of Defense. Of course, this discussion is not about Line of Defense or its merits as a game. It’s about Star Citizen and its merits as both a game AND a crowdfunded project.

So keep this in mind: Line of Defense being good or bad means NOTHING in this discussion. It’s a red herring, plain and simple. Some think it might be the motive why Derek Smart is going after CIG. Well, it’s not. Derek Smart is going after CIG because he feels it’s personal. It’s been that way since the BC3000AD days, and I was there back then to witness the whole thing. I’m not defending Derek Smart or saying he’s awesome. I’m not siding with him.

So stop with the fallacies for crying out loud. I’m getting pretty fed up with that kind of crap.

[rhamorim]

I was just joking. I figured your post was more about The Matrix than anything else. I just thought it was funny that you happened to use that reference in this case what with all the GG accusations from Chris Roberts.

Oh, sorry. I hope someone would kickstart a joke/sarcasm detector, because I get confused all the time.

Maybe Chris Roberts will add one as a feature in Star Citizen, maybe as a $90 ship module? That would be pretty helpful. ;)

[Timex]

Let me be absolutely clear here:
Star Citizen is an immense undertaking, and there have definitely been, shall we be kind and call them questionable? decisions made in its development. But at the same time, I think that most of the folks who bought into it kind of knew this was something of a longshot going in. As early as 2012, the scope of the game was already so large as to dwarf what seemed possible. But folks kept giving them money.

I fully appreciate the skepticism. I myself am TOTALLY skeptical that we will get the full vision, at least initially. Because it’s got so much stuff. I’m pretty sure we’re going to get something pretty cool though, as they’ve already made a ton of development progress on most of the stuff folks want. Things like the single player campaign, etc. It’s not like they didn’t do any of that, while building farm ships or whatever the newest nonsense thing is.

What I absolutely do not appreciate, to even the slightest degree, is any of this bullshit from Derek Smart. He not only lacks evidence for his outrageous claims, but as we’ve seen the standards by which he holds his own games are ridiculously low. He is completely full of shit. Now hey, I know some of you guys are friends of his, and that’s cool. Whatever. It doesn’t change the fact that he’s basically loading up his stone cannon from inside a house that’s not even made of glass. It’s made of some kind of even more fragile material. Like glass that’s already broken or something.

Some think it might be the motive why Derek Smart is going after CIG. Well, it’s not.

Oh, it’s not? Cause it sure seems like it. But certainly, if Derek Smart says its not, then it must be so. Right?

Derek Smart is going after CIG because he feels it’s personal.

Dude, Derek Smart is the guy who made it personal.
He started not only attacking Star Citizen, but making personal attacks on the personnel at CIG… All without even downloading the game.

[Covenant72]

its not even expectations… its whether it is acceptable for a company to take $90 million from the public and have next to nothing to show for it, with all indications that a finished product is still years away and could never see the light of day if the company becomes insolvent. All with no accountability. Trying to compare that to the quality of a self-funded indie project is simple deflection from the main issue.

[Galadin]

So stop with the fallacies for crying out loud. I’m getting pretty fed up with that kind of crap.

I would kindly request you reread where I stepped in and my response. It was in no way related to Chris vs Derek, but only your response to Timex about Line of Defense and Star Citizen. That was the part of the argument you stepped in with the comment about the colored pills, and my reply was to only suggest that Timex wasn’t incorrect. Nor did I say he was correct either, but that the argument itself really has no merit, but decrying someone because they would side with Star Citizen in that argument is definitely without merit.

My opinion on this whole thing is that it is a crappy situation to find oneself in. Derek is a cancer whenever he touches a situation, Chris got caught up in this cancer and let it metastasize when he should have just ignored it. I did jump in at the beginning about The Escapist article, because I thought it was a poor job of journalism, and again, not on any merits of its points.

Since I am not involved in this situation, I can’t say if Derek is right, Chris is right, they are both in cahoots to build up noise, or something in between. But I can jump in when I see false arguments or poor journalism.

[Fishbreath]

This is a situation where I’m disinclined to throw the fallacy bingo flag. Tu quoque is a perfectly valid response here. Derek Smart making a (another) bad game has nothing to do with the facts:

1. Chris Roberts has promised the world. Like, literally. He’s promised an alternate world.
2. The odds of that dream ever being fully realized are exceedingly slim. I would love it if, by some miracle, Star Citizen became what it’s promising. I just don’t see much of a chance of it. I’m not even sure we’re going to get much of it at all.

[rhamorim]

I would kindly request you reread where I stepped in and my response. It was in no way related to Chris vs Derek, but only your response to Timex about Line of Defense and Star Citizen. That was the part of the argument you stepped in with the comment about the colored pills, and my reply was to only suggest that Timex wasn’t incorrect.

Ah, I see now. To be honest, my red pill/blue pill comment was more about Timex’ general stance in this thread, not that particular argument. I see how it could be confusing when taken out of the context of the whole thread, and for that I apologize.

As for the rest of your comment, I agree with you. And I would go as far as to say that there is no right side in this thing - certainly not Derek, and certainly not Chris. The whole thing is a train wreck on all sides, one that (despite all my mentions to popcorn and the like) I’m actually really, really sad to see.

[Timex]

its not even expectations… its whether it is acceptable for a company to take $90 million from the public and have next to nothing to show for it, with all indications that a finished product is still years away and could never see the light of day if the company becomes insolvent. All with no accountability. Trying to compare that to the quality of a self-funded indie project is simple deflection from the main issue.

I’m not really getting the impression that CIG has “nothing to show” for the money they have spent. Even in the limited gameplay which is available, they’ve developed a pretty impressive space combat system in terms of all of the ship, flight, and combat mechanics. And this is a crucial part of the overall game.

And we know that they have the mechanics in place for multicrew ships, and seamless transition in and out of vehicles in a multiplayer environment, which is another fairly crucial aspect to the types of mechanics required for the promised gameplay.

And we know that they’ve done a ton of work on the Persistent Universe and the Single Player campaign, as evident by the discussions with the developers on the forum. Now we haven’t actually seen that ourselves, but I don’t think it’s likely that there is nothing there.

Certainly, if there really is nothing there, and all the work on Squadron 42 didn’t actually happen? Or if they have made no real progress towards its completion? Then yeah, that’s a huge problem. But I’m not really seeing why we should think that (other than Derek Smart says so).

This is a situation where I’m disinclined to throw the fallacy bingo flag. Tu quoque is a perfectly valid response here. Derek Smart making a (another) bad game has nothing to do with the facts:

1. Chris Roberts has promised the world. Like, literally. He’s promised an alternate world.
2. The odds of that dream ever being fully realized are exceedingly slim. I would love it if, by some miracle, Star Citizen became what it’s promising. I just don’t see much of a chance of it. I’m not even sure we’re going to get much of it at all.

You are right. Derek Smart’s hypocrisy really does not change the reality of the situation. It merely annoys me.

But part of this is that so much of this discussion is really about Derek Smart at this point. In terms of actual development progress on CIG, you can go to their forums and talk to their devs about all the crap they are doing. And get actual answers. And apparently they are in fact doing shit.

But Derek says they can’t possibly deliver on any of this, and must be out of money, and he knows this because of expertise.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter. Either the game is gonna get finished, or not. It’ll be way cooler for everyone but Derek if it does.

[Galadin]

Ah, I see now. To be honest, my red pill/blue pill comment was more about Timex’ general stance in this thread, not that particular argument. I see how it could be confusing when taken out of the context of the whole thread, and for that I apologize.

As for the rest of your comment, I agree with you. And I would go as far as to say that there is no right side in this thing - certainly not Derek, and certainly not Chris. The whole thing is a train wreck on all sides, one that (despite all my mentions to popcorn and the like) I’m actually really, really sad to see.

Yes, I am so sad to see this. I love the idea of what Chris Roberts is doing, and I hope he can still achieve it, but I am worried. And since I have some investment in the game (backed the Kickstarter), a lot of that worry becomes angst for something I bought into. The other big problem is that I don’t think Derek is really helping highlight any challenges with the project, and instead has injected so much vindictiveness now that I have no idea how a company like CIG can get out of this mess.

My only suggestion would be to stop all communication about Derek, and any new ship promotions or sales and just focus on circling the wagons and producing any kind of game they can. Once done, they can then reopen their ship modeling and sales, and the community should then have a better idea on what they are buying into.

[rhamorim]

Oh, it’s not? Cause it sure seems like it. But certainly, if Derek Smart says its not, then it must be so. Right?

Well, some of us have been here in the 90’s, when Derek Smart appeared. Some of us witnessed the famous flame wars. And it was ALWAYS a personal thing for Derek. ALWAYS.

Now, if Derek is going after CIG because Line of Defense sucks and Star Citizen proposes to be much better, why didn’t he go after Elite: Dangerous or Angels Fall First or something else?

Dude, Derek Smart is the guy who made it personal.

Agreed. When I say that for Derek Smart it’s always personal, it doesn’t mean he has to be provoked. All that’s needed is that he has the impression that he was provoked, as you would know if you knew him for as long as I do.

He started not only attacking Star Citizen, but making personal attacks on the personnel at CIG… All without even downloading the game.

It was not about the game. It was mostly about the LACK of game, which is actually a good point, as you admitted yourself. Or not?