I don’t anyone can. That’s my point. The review specifically ascribes that intent to Disney, and I think that’s unfair, and it kills any discussion of the film on its own merits.
Nesrie
1594
It’s still fun to see the narrative going strong though. It’s almost like claiming no one saw the movie which, well… just because we have to see it again to make sure.
Yeah that’s a lot. also
I’m not talking about financial success. I’m talking about fan reception. These are two different things.
Nesrie
1596
These fans don’t count right?
And of course some people are not using data because the data does not support… the claim.
CraigM
1597
Honestly I don’t care about how the film was made. I intend to view it on its own merits.
What I will not do is surrender the idea of Star Wars fan as some monolitic entity that uniformly dislikes the new films.
Also the cantankerous ‘Jedi is now terrible’ zeitgeist I see here? Yeah, fuck all of that.
Also this.
Uhhh… the people who like The Last Jedi are a very vocal contingent too. I don’t like you changing my words in your quote, sir. You can disagree with them, but ascribing different words to my post is rather minimizing, don’t you think?
There were some things I enjoyed in The Last Jedi. It is my least favorite Star Wars movie, by quite a wide margin. For me, ‘Jedi is now terrible’ same as it was when I saw it in theatres and contributed to the 1.3 billion that @Nesrie thinks is significant. People see these movies because they are events and they have contributed immensely to their entertainment lives. They will, by default, make a lot of money.
CraigM
1599
Admittedly there is more than a little I am so tired of the tone of conversation about Star Wars here, and the Mary Sue stuff in particular pissed me off, so I am more or less in full Steve Rodgers mode
Eh. Somewhat true. But generally people who liked it haven’t gone on long screeds about it with near the same fervor.
Additionally, even those who like it, are generally willing to discuss flaws.
And let me clarify. My ‘Jedi is now terrible’ meant Return of the Jedi. I was not sufficiently clear there.
Nesrie
1600
Yes. There are plenty of flaws in the new Star Wars films. I don’t mind discussing them at all although some I just don’t think are nearly flag raising as others.
… but it would sure be nice to talk about the movie that just came out with someone who has actually seen it.
We’re still allowed to do that right? Talk about the actual movie here? I’d go into the spoiler one but, you know, I haven’t seen it yet. I do have tickets. Had them for… months. And yeah, these days are completely sold out, I guess by Star Wars fans who somehow don’t count.
rei
1601
i don’t like the toxic male fandom that cries about rey being mary sue though they’re like gamergate incels. it can be bad on its own (lack of) merit.
CraigM
1602
Not at all. You have your words, and I specifically marked the edited words in bold to highlight the change. And that is far from a method I invented, you see it occur all over. So far from minimizing, I am contrasting.
CraigM
1603
Heh, give me a week! I won’t see it until the 26th.
Nesrie
1604
I see it this weekend! So excited. Whole family affair thing. 3 generations.
Both my nephews love Star Wars although only one can see it until mommy and daddy verify it’s okay (it probably won’t be okay but he’ll see it eventually).
I have! I’ve seen that movie!
I feel bad if I’m putting a damper on your excitement, but excepting the cast and one or two handwaves towards woefully underdeveloped ideas I liked, I didn’t care for it. At all.
Nesrie
1606
Nah. You’re not going to put a damper on my excitement. I know what these movies are, and where the flaws are. It’s a whole experience! Besides I see a lot of movies and the cast is a huge part of what I like about this. Interesting. I look forward to seeing more in the spoiler area once i am done with my viewing.
You don’t have to be toxic or male or a fan to see why Rey can easily be described as a Mary Sue in the previous two films and especially TLJ.
My concern over RoS is that the two previous films were so incongruent to each other that I can’t see how they can be reconciled. A bunch of folk liked that TLJ turned the story in its head. A bunch of folk found that TLJ just sorta did the opposite of whatever TFA handed it. I’m in the latter camp myself, but can see why TLJ resonated with some even if I don’t agree. But they are so far apart in terms of what story they were telling that i think most anything RoS does will be disliked by one side or both.
To be clear, I figure 75% of the viewers will simply like or dislike it. It’s the other 25% that will hash it out in SM.
CraigM
1608
Same.
And one thing I do agree on, I find the failure to outline a high level plan for the new films to be inexcusable.
Say what you will about individual efforts, the lack of a central individual like Feige is clearly a mistake. Dave Filloni was right there. And he gets what is great about Star Wars as well or better than anyone at Lucasfilm.
In a sense, everything bad is the CEO’s and board’s fault, but I suspect there were other considerations. Disney’s barely pulling off what they are doing. Complicating LucasFilm’s situation by getting in a fight with a predictable executive (Kennedy) could have overly risked movie quality (even if you hate them, they could have been way worse.)
In exchange for letting her do whatever she did, they got a solid pillar of Disney+ and its launch strategy, and a huge upgrade to their parks. I can’t say Iger should definitely have made a different tradeoff.
CraigM
1610
But you do have to ignore how Luke is at least as much of one. And how the film goes to lengths to justify her abilities. It lays out why in a logical manner.
I’m not sure it did and I’m not sure Luke is a much a MS as Rey. Luke was always talked about as a good pilot and spent at least a few months training with Yoda in ESB and more off screen before RoJ starts. Rey spent a couple of days with Cranky Luke. Both had plot armor up the wazoo however.
The smallness of the TLJ universe really hurt it for me. And Reys almost nonexistent training was one of those things that made it feel small. Expanding the training montage would have made a huge difference for me I think. A larger feeling universe would have helped me with many of the problems I felt TLJ had.
dtolman
1612
Luke literally went from never piloting a space ship in the first act, to leading a trench run assault on the Death Star in the third. With nothing changing inbetween.
Star Wars has always been about the protagonist getting unearned plot beats, from the beginning.
