Star Wars: The Old Republic

[TheWombat]

People I know who have played in the beta have pretty much been positive. What’s interesting is none of them are Star Wars junkies, but MMO junkies instead. For them, it’s all about the mechanics and “feel” of the game. True, most are old time DAOC–>WoW veterans, who have a very high tolerance for the triad and other tried and true MMO tropes–in fact, they relish min/maxing those sorts of systems. Intriguingly, though, these folks have also responded pretty positively to the story/dialog aspects of SWTOR, which gives me hope that the whole package will be appealing. I’m mildly interested in the Star Wars setting, very interested in traditional MMOs with AAA production values and standard systems, and cautiously optimistic that there will be some world PvP on PvP servers. If the game can satisfy on those levels, it’ll be worth my monthly fee for a while at least.

[Brian_Rucker]

I just like Bioware singleplayer games. If there’s enough sweet, sweet, narrative icing on it I’m willing to put up with the generic grind cake underneath. That I can team up with others if I’m in the mood is a plus but not the main draw for me here.

What will decide me long term on this prospect is going to be whether a RP community gels. There are factors that play to this (the Bioware narrative form innately encouraging people to think in RP terms) and against it (serious lack of the usual RP amenities and a paucity of customization options - also if Bioware’s doing the storytelling people might not feel compelled to do it for themselves).

[Mike_Cathcart]

So does anyone actually think the freaking barrens is even half as good as any of the starter areas in swtor?

I remember when i played wow, EVERYONE hated the barrens…

The Barrens–like most of original WoW–was changed drastically in the last expansion. I never hated it but I still think it’s a lot better now than it was back then.

[Menzo]

It seems very clear that they’ve got a polarized set of testers. One set of testers really likes the game, really enjoys the insertion of the Bioware style dialog system, and thinks that the game is a lot of fun. Another group thinks that the game is really dull, more of the same, and is very disappointed that Bioware didn’t try innovating.

Late breaking news: video game company fails to make videogame that the entire world loves without reservation.

BioWare doesn’t need the whole world to love TOR for it to be successful. If they can find 2 million people who do, they’ll be rolling in it. Any more is just gravy.

I think they’ll make it work. Those 2 million people won’t all be hard-core MMO players and min/maxers, but just look at the success of Skyrim to see that there are tons of people who love RPGs and love story. Now BioWare just needs to convince them to pay $15/month for it.

[Dejin]

Late breaking news: video game company fails to make videogame that the entire world loves without reservation.

BioWare doesn’t need the whole world to love TOR for it to be successful. If they can find 2 million people who do, they’ll be rolling in it. Any more is just gravy.

I think they’ll make it work. Those 2 million people won’t all be hard-core MMO players and min/maxers, but just look at the success of Skyrim to see that there are tons of people who love RPGs and love story. Now BioWare just needs to convince them to pay $15/month for it.

Actually I believe their official numbers are they breakeven somewhere around 500,000 and will be substantially profitable with 1 million users.

It’s quite possible though to make a videogame that the vast majority of people love without reservation. For example, while there are probably a few players that didn’t like Red Dead Redemption the vast majority of both critics and the general public thought it was pretty amazing. I’m sure we can find a fair number of other examples of games that the vast majority of players think are very good. SWTOR isn’t going to be one of them though.

I think they’re going to be at least somewhat successful. I sure hope they will be because I would be very sad if SWTOR killed off Bioware.

[gurugeorge]

So the cutscenes and story are basically a different form of time sink so we have to play the game longer and therefore pay more money?

Absolutely! :)

But as with any timesink, if you’re into it, it doesn’t feel like a timesink.

[Murbella]

Considering how divisive bioware’s last couple games have been, it is no surprise that their mmorpg is the same.

[gurugeorge]

I actually think Brett is on the money with this. You guys are seeing this through a dedicated CRPG player perspective, while the vast majority of MMOG players are not. My experience with WoW has shown me that the bulk of the player base hasn’t a clue about plot or anything other than rapid progression to end game and then gearing up. The “achiever” type has become the dominant type as MMOGs expanded out of the solo gamer market. Bioware may want to sell a story-centric MMOG, and that may be what the majority people reading this want, but in order to retain those achiever types as subscribers they will need to focus on the standard carrots - clear path to end game, then character power expansion as used in whatever vehicles the game provides (PvE raids, etc).

I say this as someone who will buy the game and who will try to squeeze whatever juice I can out of the story. I just put 200 hours into Dragon Age: Origins, heh…I’m half tempted to try and find KOTOR again just to refresh my memory (I never did play the sequel). I’m old school though - the core crowd doesn’t care about dialogue, spoken or not. They will have to be catered to.

They are catered to - they can skip the dialogue :)

Every MMO is wise to cater to all the Bartle types, but MMO devs usually favour Achievers, because they make better addicts. And often devs miss out PK-ers altogether (because they’re harder to please? possibly)

But what’s wrong with BioWare breaking this mould? Maybe they’re not relying on retaining addicted Achiever subscriptions but on getting every Explorer in the world to play the game for just a year or so (and they’ve got enough HQ VO content for that)? People who don’t normally play MMOs, who aren’t stone-gone Achievers?

I keep coming back to some statistic I read somewhere (! :) ) about how there’s still a huge number of gamers out there who never touch MMOs because they’re such hamster wheels. Maybe that untapped market is what BioWare are going for.

It’s actually quite logical in a way. Blizzard were an already hugely successful company, their core fanbase for WoW initially were hardcore Achiever fans of their RTSs. BioWare is an already hugely successful company, but their core fanbase for SWTOR is bound to be more Explorer types.

[Ryslin]

I just like Bioware singleplayer games. If there’s enough sweet, sweet, narrative icing on it I’m willing to put up with the generic grind cake underneath. That I can team up with others if I’m in the mood is a plus but not the main draw for me here.

What will decide me long term on this prospect is going to be whether a RP community gels. There are factors that play to this (the Bioware narrative form innately encouraging people to think in RP terms) and against it (serious lack of the usual RP amenities and a paucity of customization options - also if Bioware’s doing the storytelling people might not feel compelled to do it for themselves).

customization
compared to wow? floored
compared to everquest 2? Pretty!!
compared to the never ending costume engine in City of? Interesting, ooh… hey that’s neat

[Nephrinn]

The Barrens–like most of original WoW–was changed drastically in the last expansion. I never hated it but I still think it’s a lot better now than it was back then.

All the zones are better in the sense that they each tell a (usually) somewhat compelling story now. The problem is that it no longer feels like an MMO; there is no sense of exploration and discovery and certainly no incentive or requirement to group up anymore.

I’m not sure how SWTOR will compare in this regard to Cata, but I’d imagine the story will be much more compelling. I also know they’re putting an emphasis on the codex, so exploring areas might be worth it for additional lore even if the story forces everyone on a linear path.

[MarchHare]

Reading the past few pages makes me think I’m some kind of unique breed of MMO player: the OCD achiever who also is interested in the plot and story. In my time playing WoW, I completed damn near every achievement I could (I skipped anything PvP-related as I had no interest in that aspect), but while completing every quest in the game for Loremaster, I took the time to read every line of text to learn why I should be motivated to collect 10 kobald candles or whatever.

I also love Bioware’s single-player RPGs for their stories and characters. If they can deliver an experience like that in an MMO package, I can see this being a game I’ll play for quite some time.

[Jason_Townsend]

Considering how divisive bioware’s last couple games have been, it is no surprise that their mmorpg is the same.

DA2 was divisive. ME2 was divisive on Quarter to Three. I love the place but it isn’t the gaming universe.

I don’t think SWTOR will be seen as divisive. It’ll get called WoW-with-light-sabers and a sizable chunk of MMOers will go “Pfff I’m waiting for GW2,” and some Star Wars people will buy it not knowing what MMOs are like. Then there’ll be all of the people who wanted a KISS non-broken trinity MMO with Bioware story and Star Wars IP well integrated.

[The_Mad_Hatter]

They are catered to - they can skip the dialogue :)

Every MMO is wise to cater to all the Bartle types, but MMO devs usually favour Achievers, because they make better addicts. And often devs miss out PK-ers altogether (because they’re harder to please? possibly)

But what’s wrong with BioWare breaking this mould? Maybe they’re not relying on retaining addicted Achiever subscriptions but on getting every Explorer in the world to play the game for just a year or so (and they’ve got enough HQ VO content for that)? People who don’t normally play MMOs, who aren’t stone-gone Achievers?

I keep coming back to some statistic I read somewhere (! :) ) about how there’s still a huge number of gamers out there who never touch MMOs because they’re such hamster wheels. Maybe that untapped market is what BioWare are going for.

It’s actually quite logical in a way. Blizzard were an already hugely successful company, their core fanbase for WoW initially were hardcore Achiever fans of their RTSs. BioWare is an already hugely successful company, but their core fanbase for SWTOR is bound to be more Explorer types.

If there’s actually a year’s worth of content there to work with and it’s not bugged or “to be patched in later” they’ll do fine. Achievers are still going to be the core of their audience though. That is just the way of things in MMOs.

BTW, with regards to content: the reason I never even tried LOTRO is that I hated the idea of a Middle Earth game that began with the small area around the Shire and slowly expanded to cover the areas in the books via expansions. To me that said “unfinished game”. Perhaps that’s the trap of a known brand - people like me expect too much. Bioware was wise to stick with the far less recognizable Old Republic model.

[Brian_Rucker]

If you didn’t try LoTRO, especially now it’s free, dude - you’re missing out. And it doesn’t start out in just the Shire. There’s also Bree for Man and Ered Luin for Elves and Dwarves. It’s a great game both in terms of mechanical variety and aesthetics.

[Mike_Cathcart]

All the zones are better in the sense that they each tell a (usually) somewhat compelling story now. The problem is that it no longer feels like an MMO; there is no sense of exploration and discovery and certainly no incentive or requirement to group up anymore.

It’s really hard to compare WoW starting zones and SWTOR starting zones, though, because right now the SWTOR starting zones are the happening place where everyone is but in WoW the starting zones are something we did seven years ago that new players have to play through so they can catch up to the veterans (or that veterans have to play through again so they can gear up alts). In the case of SWTOR you probably want a more engaging starting experience with grouping and all of that jazz because there’s not a ton of endgame to rush towards yet and in WoW you want something that’s fun and cool but that also doesn’t slow you down if you can’t get a party going at the drop of a hat. I guess it’s a pretty tough problem for designers.

[Saxman_72]

So the cutscenes and story are basically a different form of time sink so we have to play the game longer and therefore pay more money?

My god, man, everything is a timesink. You writing that response was a timesink. Reading this is a timesink.

OH MY GOD WE’RE STILL TIMESINKING RIGHT NOW - HOW CAN WE STOP IT?!?

[JM1]

Aaaand another thread heads down the tubes because people are engaging one of the handful of morons who derail everything.

Please stop.

[The_Mad_Hatter]

Is there a summary anywhere of the story behind KOTOR and its sequel? It’s been too long for me to remember more than the bare outlines of KOTOR and I never played the second one.

[Brettmcd]

Aaaand another thread heads down the tubes because people are engaging one of the handful of morons who derail everything.

Please stop.

Aaaaaaaaand another troll comes in and thinks he is important enough to order everyone else around about who they are allowed to respond to.

[Rasputin]

Is there a summary anywhere of the story behind KOTOR and its sequel? It’s been too long for me to remember more than the bare outlines of KOTOR and I never played the second one.

Wookiepedia to the rescue!