Thank you for all the people who like TLJ for voicing their take on the movie in a much better and eloquent way then I could. I still love the movie, warts and all. I feel the reversal of tropes makes it one of the best in the franchise.
There was a six year old kid behind us and some twenty somethings to our left. The six year old kid did very well throughout the movie. He asked for popcorn a couple of times, that’s how quiet the audience was, he got excited when a character he knew was on the screen, the new ones, and thenhe shouted Yoda when showed up. I mean just a load, happy shout. The twenty somethings beside me talked a lot of about the video game trailers, we had a ton, got really excited about Marvel even after they’ve seen those trailers probably a dozen times, and they were just excited the whole time.
There were some things done in the movie for kids. i’m okay with that. They did it a lot better this time around in terms of how much of that was there in comparison to the prequels.
Why was there salt, was it the white stuff or the red stuff, was it just there for the visuals or the primary purpose to let you know Luke wasn’t there because he was walking and not kicking the stuff up at all?. I don’t know. It was cool visually. If I watched it again, maybe I could confirm that’s the tell. Did Rose and Finn spend a lot of time on a plan that didn’t work… they did. Did their actions further define Finn and Rose. Yeah it did. If you didn’t like Finn before; you’re not going to like him now. I think he’s a fine character, but they weren’t here to change him to make people who didn’t like him before happy. Rose, if she sticks around, I’m fine with that.
Luke, no he didn’t live the life I thought he would. It was sad. It was flawed, and in the end Rey lifted a ton of rocks and I thought yeah, there’s the next new hope.
And they said it, point blank in the movie. You learn from failures. Luke learned. Rey learned. Finn learned. Poe learned.
I understand why people didn’t like some of the flawed CGIs. The plots weren’t perfect, but I never saw Star Wars as perfect or even heavily scientific. It’s sci-fantasy to me, and it has incredible characters, and unique ideas, and a flowing generational tale and thank god they didn’t blow up another freaking planet.
Things I liked:
- Rey and the mad sith kid chat using magic. That was cool.
- Again, the fight of Rey with the mad sith kid.
- All the cute animals, porgs and the fox thingies.
- Hyperwarping trough other ship, visually amazing thing.
- Luke Last Magic Trick. It was not obvious to me.
The interaction of the magic kiddo, luke and the girl where good, imho. All the magic users kind of did a good job.
Disney is ruining this franchise.
Wrong quote, buddy. ;)
I would guess only a few detractors care about the CGI problems or the visuals in general. And we know this is sword wielding monks in space, more fantasy and less science but that does not excuse the Death Star size plot holes and how bland the characters were.
There were no memorable quotes or moments (except perhaps the hyperdrive suicide bombing). No Jedi badass moments. No ‘feels’ in general, this thing lacked soul, it’s like a well made but sterile corporate commercial.
But the worst part, by far, are the characters. Let me give you a simple example: take any memorable character im the first trilogy and try to describe them. Hans Solo is reckless, arrogant, cool, abusive with the robots, selfish but also loyal. Despite being the thief with a heart of gold archtype that anyone who reads fantasy or plays games has seen many times, he seems ‘real’ because of proper character development. There’s a lot to say about the original Leia who is stubborn, kind, caring, temperamental and fiercely devoted to her friends/family/cause.
Now consider the 2 new movies try to describe Flynn. That is the new trilogy’s biggest problem, in a nutshell and if you don’t believe me just listen to Mark Hamill:
“I tried to show it JJ and he was accomodating but basically patted me on the head, gave me a cookie and told me go away because, whatever, make it up!”
That’s EXACTLY how I felt watching the Last Jedi, I got given a cookie, a pat on the head and I was told to go away.
I would counterpoint that Kylo Ren is a much better villain than Darth Vader in terms of character development by a mile, and while Finn is the less compelling of the new leads, the other two feel pretty well rounded (and I would say Poe had one hell of a development in this one).
I thougth the movie was less uneven than AFA but also with lower heights mainly due to the handling of actors and framing, but while some stuff is underdeveloped, there’s a soul in there, and I think it’s mainly around Kylo Ren.
Yes, that and Luke suddently looking 20 years younger are the main tells. IIRC there’s this lingering shot of Kylo dragging his foot sideways and leaving a red trail, and then a cut to Luke walking and leaving no marks. (And let’s ignore the anti-tells, like Luke interacting with Leia and leaving the golden dice).
But I’d bet it was primarily for the striking visuals. Despite the battle being such a foregone conclusion that the Rebels literally do nothing except have their hovercraft shot down, it was still the coolest looking Star Wars land battle sequence.
You must be joking when comparing Kylo Ren to Darth Vader. One week after the A New Hope’s premiere, children, teenagers, adults were running around in supermarkes in Vader costumes yet two years after his debut I’ve yet to see ANYONE dressed up as Kylo Ren. Who the bloody hell would want to be a crybaby with mom and dad issues??
Vader initially had no backstory because he didn’t NEED one. He was a personification of evil and immense power just like the Joker in TDK (who by the way also had no backstory) was a personification of chaos. The actions of this character defined him, every line he said, every the detail (the mask the cape the voice), ALL of it represents character development and it worked so well, it created a legend.
I disagree completely and I was not joking. Darth Vader might have been a personification of evil, but he never was a character in the original trilogy (maybe in RotJ, but only there and for a brief moment).
Kylo Ren works worse as a symbol, sure, but it is a much more interesting character you can build a movie around. Darth Vader was a puppet and a cypher. A cool looking one, sure, but really boring and flat narrative wise.
The Last Jedi: Star Wars
The battle of no-darkness vs no-light.
I don’t know how they are going to continue this. The evil mad sith kid is now a certified idiot in front his entire army. In the trainyard the low rank soldiers will make jokes about this kid getting tricked by a hologram and they will laugh their ass.
By the rule of two, we need another sith, pronto.
I don’t know. I was a hell of a lot more interested by Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men than I ever was by Kylo Ren. We know nothing about Chigurh’s background. I do not think the fact that we do not have Chigurh’s background somehow makes him not a “character.”
I think your definition of an interesting character differs heavily from mine.
I did not mention background as necessary for a character (I don’t think it is).
For a character to be compelling you need normally access (empathy, understanding…) and/or development (none of these require background at all). Sometimes you can have mystery substitute those for a while, but it stays just being mysterious then I think we are not talking so much about a character as about a plot point or menace.
I found Anton Chigurh compelling to watch, but I would not call him a good character at all, the same way I would not call the xenomorph from Alien a good character. It’s an amazing and fundamental part of the movie, but not really as a character.
Ben Solo is pathetic. Not only does he look like he will burst into tears every time he is on screen, but even that fabled “backstory” of his is just so…uninterestingly bad.
I mean what is it, really? He was a student of Luke’s, and then one day Luke senses too much “darkness” in him because reasons, in split second decision activates the lightsaber on Ben while he is sleeping, but hesitates so Ben brings the roof down in self defense and kills everyone except few he takes with him (who are where, exactly?).
And Luke is so sad about this that instead of, I dunno, trying to do what he did with his own father, who was vastly more steeped in the dark side with history of evil (and suceeding in turning him around), he recuses himself and goes to an island to die.
And Ben Solo never becomes more interesting/well characterized after that. Just a petulant 30+ year old looking child.
So interesting.
And what do we know about Kylo Ren/Ben Solo? “Kill the past,” kill the soft part of yourself, I idolize grandpa. No real reason for those things. No intelligible reason why he would seemingly leave behind loving parents, loving uncle, etc. Note that Luke trying to kill him isn’t an excuse, as we learned very clearly that he was turning evil before that (it was him turning that precipitated Luke’s response, not Luke just deciding he was going to kill his nephew). We have no idea why he was turning evil. Why he needed to crush out the good feelings that were left. He apparently just badly wants to become Darky McDarkness.
He decided to turn evil because he was being telepathically contacted by some google eyed alien named Snoke that we’ve never heard of before?
I mean, this may be the first time I ever give the prequels credit - the Anakin/Vader origin story makes more sense than this stuff.
You seem tied up in “knowing” something about what motivates him. That’s not necessary and again, it’s background which I don’t care about.
The difference between Kylo Ren and Vader, and what makes Kylo a more compelling character for me, is that I have access to him as he makes choices. You know, the watching a character develop thing? I don’t need to know why he is turning evil, but I do need to see him turning or changing in some way to feel interested about his journey (which I am much more than for any other villain in the series. Mind you , it’s not Shakespeare, it’s barely passable, but it’s way better than what we’ve had in Star Wars until now).
Darth Vader makes a choice in the original movies, but just one and at the very end of the trilogy. Otherwise he’s basically a puppet. He is just Darky McDarkness all the way through (which might be cool, but is deeply uninteresting). People complain about the ewoks all the time, but the most childish part of the original trilogy is Vader. The ewoks have the same pathos as he does in a 10th of the screen time.
I liked the movie, without loving it, but Adam Diver is by far the best thing in it imho and his scenes elevated a movie that I would have found middling otherwise (Mark Hamill, on the other hand, drove the film through the mud with his “acting”).
I’m sure Ep. 9 will open with a more “World War” feeling attributed to the lack of focus of the First Order after the death of Snoke and will feature a lot of epic space battles that will destroy most of the known galaxy.
Considering there’s another trilogy already on deck, I have to think the by the end of Ep 9 both the new republic and First Order will fall and the entire Star Wars universe will become permanently fragmented into hundreds of minor powers in order to give future film makers maximum flexibility on the direction they want to take the series afterwards. I don’t think the monolithic Empire vs Resistance formula gives them all that much to work with (unless they go towards an invasion story like the books did)
I don’t know what you watched but Kylo Ren starts the first film as an evil crybaby and he ends the second one as an evil crybaby. There’s zero development unless you count removing the mask as development. Your complaints about Vader are perfectly valid when directed at Kylo Ren, he does evil things just because the plot says he should but unlike Vader, an icon of cinematography, he is a cringe meme generator.
I figured they were the flunkies killed in the throne room fight.
Ok, Kylo Ren redeemed. This is hilarious :)
I mean, they were supposed to be Jedi adepts. Relegating them to red nonsense wearing canon fodder bodyguarding Snoke…I suppose it would make sense for this dumpsterfire.
Exactly :P . I don’t think we will ever agree on this.
Kylo Ren starts trying to find and kill Luke to show himself he can fully embrace darkness and solve his internal conflict. He wants to be proven as the most powerful of the jedi, but he is unsure about it himself.
He manages to overcome (temporarily? we’ll see, I’m not sure this is going to be a redemption story) his doubts and kill his father, but just when he feels he’s come closer to his goal, he is bested by a nobody more powerful than him and ridiculed by his master. However, instead of bowing to him again, he manages to trick him and depose (kill) him, finally attaining the power he seeked but outside of his original framework.
Again, not shakespeare, but some development there, and much more than in the original trilogy by the end of the second film (which has no development whatsoever until the third movie)