Not sure our flag or soldiers have ever been more disrespected than during the Civil War. And the same simpletons that spew shit about the protest also defend all the confederate bullshit.
Global warming is caused by Jesus getting a little flushed looking at all the hot trannies in football stadium bathrooms.
“I wore a tacky jacket made out of it.”
Aw jeez.
That is some high grade shade, and well articulated.
How can you relay this message and not get too anti Trump? He has shifted the Overton window so far here that merely presenting a reasoned opinion, based in facts, is strongly anti Trump.
Nah, I’d say if they get too offended that this is anti trump, call them snowflakes and move on.
Not facebook, but whatever.
Today I learned that it’s not only Katy Perry doing Satanic ritual worship live on TV awards shows, but Gaga also had her career boosted because she sold her soul to the Dark Lord in a secret ritual a decade ago. Also the Illuminati are apparently Satanists?
I’m surprised nobody seems to get where I’m coming from (and that’s threatening to become a trend here) but it’s really simple. I want to talk with my Michigan/Virginia family members about Black Lives Matter and the NFL protests. I don’t want to talk about Trump. That’s a serious dead end and an invitation to tune me out. I’m making an effort to communicate and listen. I don’t even know if they are Trump supporters or not.
(That said, someone wrote that this went from “one man’s opinion to mass ‘get on the train’” so I had to point out that we all know why that happened, after our president started tweeting about it. But still, I’m maintaining EXTREME NEUTRALITY and avoiding his cursed name.)
So yesterday my cousin posted that she was offended by the protests as a member of the military. Others agreed and thanked her for her service. I carefully wrote that I wasn’t disagreeing but wanted to advocate for us to also acknowledge the purpose of the protest and make it part of the discussion as well.
There were one or two “ALL lives matter” or “So tired of the strife the left is constantly stirring up.” but the majority of the replies were some variation on “Totally agree” (with the critical original post) and/or “Thank you for your service.”
Today there were a few more “Totally agree” comments so I pointed out that, yes, I think we all agree, military service is good, that part was easy, but the ongoing silence on the other side of the discussion about the issue of African Americans getting killed by police officers with no consequence was discouraging.
I got this reply from someone I don’t know: “Well a start is that they aren’t “African Americans,” unless a person of color was born in Africa they are simply Americans, the term African American continues the seperation between the races. If that were the case it would be AALM not BLM.”
I thought this was absurd but played nice and said Fair Enough and edited my post to change the terminology to “black people” and said I thought she’d simply found another distraction to avoid my point about avoiding their point.
My cousin just private messaged me! Getting somewhere.
She started with a story of a heroic cop, another cousin of hers in Las Vegas who was fired upon and then fired back and then gave CPR to the man who had tried to kill him.
Then she asked if bad things happen to good people and answered her own question with a Yes.
She said she “taught her children to respect the badge and to do what they tell you to do at that time, do not provoke or argue, do not give them a reason to feel their life is in danger.”
Then she asked if there are bad cops and answered, “Of course there are.” She thinks there are also bad doctors, bankers, teachers, and plumbers.
“Unfortunately, with all of the psychological testing done to weed out ones that aren’t fit to wear the badge, some still slip through the cracks.”
This part was heartening at least…
“I respect the badge, not the man, I respect the office of the presidency, not the president. (someone take that man’s cell phone from him please).”
Lastly, she feels that the players should be making a real difference rather than just kneeling for “1 minute and 34 seconds.”
I feel like loads of these players must be very involved in charities. I’d like to make that point to her. Do any of you football fans know if that’s the case?
P.S. My post reads a bit snarky in places but I do respect her and want to respond thoughtfully.
I understand your predicament more than would be believed from my posts.
Discussion is two things, listening and responding. You’re doing a good thing easing into it with others, especially family. Note though that it is really, really tough to move opinions these days. Doubly so via Facebook or messenger. But if you’re making headway, please keep it up.
Thanks, Skipper. I decided I’m not in it to change opinions. That’s what my mom said also (it’s futile, why bother trying?) But I’m not trying. I’m just stating my own opinions, as diplomatically and respectfully as I can because JESUS GOD IN HEAVEN it seems like the only possible solution to this clusterfuck of a moment when corporations and our own goddamn president are playing us against each other and profiting from it.
Honestly it’s hard for me to engage with people filled to the brim with such maddening hypocrisy. The “they should be doing good deeds in their communities” bullshit is exactly that. No one will admit that racism lies at the heart of these issues. It’s not the flag, the soldiers, etc.
These same people were filled with rage that people were disrespecting the confederate flag just weeks ago.
Yep, rowe, that’s the subtext, for sure. But I honestly think many of them don’t perceive this hypocrisy as a form of racism.
Someone wrote, “If these overpaid children want to make change than DO IT!, get out of their mansions, give away the money they have no problem keeping, and get INVOLVED”
I typed out something like, “I tend to think it isn’t a great look for us white people to be telling black people what to do.” But then I deleted it because it was flirting too close to calling them racist. Gotta avoid that, obviously, but maybe I can steer them towards a modest epiphany.
It’s galling how they accuse the players of getting paid millions for “playing a GAME” as if we weren’t all complicit in that.
I would love to know who among the kneeling NFL players are well-known for charitable work, hospital visits, or donating money.
I tend to follow the path rrmorton does, in dealing with people face to face (I stay off of social media entirely). I often feel, however, that I’m being too charitable to people who don’t deserve it. The only way someone can unironically say they “respect the badge” when talking about cops is if they are white, not poor, and rarely come into contact with police. For me, it’s the other way around. I instinctively distrust the badge, but respect many of the people wearing it, based on who they are and what they do.
Same with the military. I have deep respect for many of the people who serve in the military, but I am quite ambivalent about the military as a whole. Growing up in a military family, and then working with the military and on military bases later in life, I came to feel that the institution (the military) is problematic in many ways. I also have come to feel that in the context of the past thirty years or so, simply joining the military per se doesn’t make one a hero, or in fact worthy of special respect. Though who serve do deserve our respect, there are quite a few I’ve run into who are hardly great exemplars of humanity. More importantly, the idea that the military safeguards our freedoms is far more complex than most make it out to be. Before the mid twentieth century, Americans generally distrusted and avoided the military as much as possible. We saw it as a drain on resources and a potential threat to liberty. It was WWII and the Cold War that changed that idea, and the change occurred in the context of a conscription system that insured that a large portion of the (white) male population served in the military. Vietnam, though, eroded the feeling of oneness between the military and the society, as gradually most people came to feel that their freedoms were hardly being safeguarded by napalming villages in Laos.
Today, while it’s easy to respect individuals who served in, say, Iraq or Afghanistan, it’s damn hard to feel the military as a whole was defending us there.
I get where you’re coming from, but the issue is it’s very difficult to address anything with these folks without quickly coming up against the “Trump effect”.
In the case of the NFL protests, you could point out that Kaepernick began by siting on the bench, but after consulting with multiple United States veterans switched to kneeling because they themselves told him it was a sign of respect. You can point out that a lot of the outrage that focuses on “disrespecting the flag” is kind of ironic given that we break flag code every day by creating and using clothing, paper goods and advertising with flag images on them. You can also point to the many athletes who have been quoted, especially this week, as stating specifically that the kneeling is not out of disrespect for the flag or American veterans, but a call for help to grant minority communities the very same respect people are so keen to accuse them of trashing. That BLM isn’t about being anti-cop, it’s not about Black Lives mattering MORE, but about minority lives mattering equally. The Declaration of Independence states that “All Men Are Created Equal”, and yet almost 250 years later in America that phrase is still not entirely true, as we see people of different races, religions and cultures treated with suspicion and disrespect nearly every day in this very country.
That is what this protest is about. It is about having the respect and love for your country enough to understand something is not right, that the values and rights that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution put in place have not always been applied equally to all Americans. Such a protest can’t be “done on your own time”, because it reaches no one that way. In 1968 at the Olympic Games, Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists above their bowed heads during the National Anthem, igniting a firestorm of controversy that saw them blasted as disrespectful and ungrateful by the media and kicked off the U.S. Olympic team, even though that was the furthest thing from the truth. Sound familiar? Today they are widely regarded as heroes of the Civil Rights movement. Unfortunately that movement is still ongoing, despite all the efforts of people like Smith and Carlos, Dr. King, Ms. Parks and many others. Kneeling is the 2017 Civil Rights movement, it’s not disrespecting the country at all, rather it’s a call to the country for help in finally bringing racism, injustice and inequality to an end in a country founded on the tenet that All Men Are Created Equal.
If they can’t accept that argument, or at least acknowledge it’s worth, then I’m afraid they may simply be racist (or stupid, or both), plain and simple, and nothing is going to open their eyes.
All good points, but just a quick thought on this quote.
I honestly don’t know who among my Michigan family members are Trump supporters. Some of those cousins have been known to ‘Like’ fairly liberal articles that my sister or wife share. And as I quoted above, the cousin on whose page I’m having this discussion revealed that she wants “someone to take away (Trump’s) cell phone, please!” So I don’t know if she voted for him but she’s clearly not a rabid supporter.
I think we should be careful about this notion that it’s futile to even try discussing sensitive political topics with friends and family. It’s basically giving up. Some people are dead-ends and don’t deserve the time but we shouldn’t make blanket assumptions and then avoid the conversations. What it takes is an ability to communicate effectively without causing defensiveness or conflict. I’m dropping the “I think’s” and “I feel’s” practically every other sentence. Super gentle language which I’ve picked up from years reading or posting on forums, seeing examples of productive debate and obstinate trolling. Anyway, it feels good to try.
Today I’m cooking up an anecdote about racial insensitivity and how I work with college freshmen and now that I’m in my mid-40’s I occasionally have to face the changing social norms and my own outdated thoughts or language. I initially get defensive and think “Hey, I’m not sexist/racist!” But then I take some time to reflect and make a few modest adjustments. It’s either that or stay exactly the same for 80 years and turn into a crusty old a-hole and then die. My hope is that I can invite them to consider ways of doing this in their own lives by understanding or acknowledging the emotional process that goes into it.
