Swords and Sorcery: Underworld

Games
1

To keep spam manageable, the forum is set up so that accounts can’t start a new thread until they’ve got 50 posts. But this means when someone like Charles Clerc wants to drop in and talk about his game – and I encourage developers to feel free to do so! – he can’t start his own thread.

So to that end, I present you with the Swords and Sorcery: Underworld thread for this old-school party-based RPG, which is currently getting a graphical overhaul.

Here’s the site for more information and Charles will presumably be along shortly to do the official plugging and answer any questions.

-Tom

2

I’ll be the first to ask: is there a Mac OS X version planned?

3

There is, but not soon. The porting tools currently available for what I use are useless (I lost three months trying and failing). The next version of GM is expected to be multi-platform though so when it comes out I should be able to compile for both easily. But no official date has been announced yet, to my knowledge.

Thanks Tom for the thread!

EDIT September 13th 2012

I cannot edit the very first entry because it isn’t mine, but the overhaul is finally finished. I hope you don’t mind me bumping the thread with a new comment (see below).

4

You face
99 berserkers,
99 berserkers,
99 berserkers,
99 berserkers.

5

Four groups of 99? No such thing here. Encounters are lists like the MM encounters, not groups like in BT.

6

Here are some initial notes based on the demo. It’s sort of stream-of-consciousness, so don’t take any of it too personally.

(1) Character rolling interface lacks useful feedback. For example, you can pick a character’s race and gender before rolling, but then when you hit ®oll, the race and gender reset to null.
(2) Only male character portraits in the dwarf/elf/human interface. Not critical, but a polish issue.
(3) alt-tabbing works! yay.
(4) On inventory screen “Equiped” should be spelled “Equipped”
(5) The inventory screen looks like it could have been lifted directly from Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (Note: not complaining, but if I encounter a “Blade Cusinart” you’re gonna owe someone royalties.)
(6) Character rolling overall: I spent many hours playing the original Wizardry and Bard’s Tale, and I think I speak for a lot of us when I say: really, I’m sort of done with rolling a character’s numbers (as opposed to picking skills, class, etc). I sort of want my choices during the game to affect my character’s skills, not my tolerance for sitting and hitting ‘r’ more times than someone else. I know it’s a feature of the classic genre, but you should at least consider whether it’s one worth keeping. At a minimum, I’d suggest that you have the game optionally start with a “quick-start” party or prerolled characters that can just be renamed or used.
(7) Polish issue - the square textures on some of the buttons don’t fit some of the roundrect ‘buttons’, making them look like peas rattling around a shell. Button style overall is inconsistent (poster boy: the “Add to Party / Back” buttons on the initial inventory screen lack borders/buttons completely, making them stick out badly)
(8) It was completely unclear to me that De(m)ote meant “Delete” until I got the warning sheet.
(9) In the game proper the VERY FIRST THING I did was hit (M)aps, then (Z)oom out to a completely blank “Highnest” screen – and flailed around as I couldn’t tell what key I needed to hit to exit. After trying every other key on the keyboard, turns out it’s “Return”. That screen should have some indicator explaining how to exit. Also, “esc” should always exit any modal screen like that. Always. No matter what. 100% of the time. Absolutely. Forever. And if anyone thinks otherwise, they’re wrong, and should be punished severely.
(10) “(M)aps closed” is a weird way to phrase that, because it reads like a status, not an action. If you want to preserve the ‘m’ key for that, just say ‘Close (m)ap’. And also make the ESC key do that. Because that’s what it’s for.
(11) The introductory “There are three ways to move your party…” popup only appeared (for me) after I took my first step by guessing that the arrow keys would work. It should appear one turn earlier to actually be useful. I predict some of your users will want to use W-A-S-D, but I don’t particularly care either way.
(12) Just went through a door and got a (very nice) high-res art of a devil. Is there any way to re-play interstitial scenes like that after the fact? Would be a nice feature.
(13) Turned around south after that scene and discovered i was ALREADY IN the INN, which wasn’t clear to me at all. I thought I started in a city street. Might want to make that clear somehow.
(14) First combat in the arena! Nice way to learn the game, but I wish someone had directed me here. Immediately I realize that my party is in the wrong order, and I have no idea how to reorder them.
(15) GACK! My characters don’t start with their items equipped? OK, guess I’ll do that in combat.
(16) I think this monkey tried to hit me but the results flitted by too quickly for me to tell what happened.
(17) You’re making really really poor use of your visual space here in the character list. So to take one example, at the bottom of the screen I see this:


(1) Fighter  |  (2) Fighter
(3) Paladin  |  (4) Rogue
(5) Priest   |  (6) Sorcerer

That’s terrible. It’s terrible because I have to look at it and think about the numbers when instead I should be able to intuit the order at a glance. In fact, when I first saw it, I assumed the left side was the ‘front’ row, and the right side was the ‘back’ row. I would either order things in exactly that way, or else do it visually:

(1) Fighter | (2) Fighter | (3) Fighter
(4) Priest | (5) Rogue | (6) Sorcerer

If the game has a “front row / back row” like Wizardry (I haven’t figured this out yet), that let’s me immediately answer the question “Which row are the characters in?” at a glance.

You’re also indicating whose turn it is by putting a “Maximillian’s Turn” prompt at the bottom of that box. Again, you could do that visually: make the name/status boxes for all non-active character a darker grey, and the active character bright white, or something similar. You save real estate, and make it easier for the user to see what’s what.

(18) Trying the middle tier of the arena, two of my characters died. I wonder how I resurrect them, or if that’s even possible.

OK, that’s enough for a first cut. I think you’ve got an interesting game here, and I’ll probably buy it when it’s out on Mac OS X, on general principles if nothing else. I do encourage you to think carefully about what aspects of the game can or should be ‘primitive’ out of wanting to be true to the genre, and which aspects of the game need to be polished further. It’s easy to fall into the trap of leaving something unpolished and (to take a ridiculous example that you did not do) saying “Well, Temple of Apshai made the user look up flavor text in a paper manual (“Read entry #28”), so I can totally get away with that also!” You can’t. The people you’re appealing might want the nostalgic experience of playing a game that refers to the games they played when they were 13, but if you actually hew too closely to that game you’ll create something that can’t actually be played by someone with a job.

Hope this helps, and good luck. I’ll give more comments if I have any.

7

(19) I just noticed it now, but seriously, the plate-mail-bra-and-panties image for the Paladin is juvenile.

8

(20) If you’re going to use coordinates like “Please report to the Highest guard location at 10,12” in quests, then put the coordinates on the main screen, not just on the map.
(21) I sort of want some sort of in-game help. Like, what’s a “rune”, and why am I memorizing it?
(22) If the game is seriously going to make me wait for 5 seconds every time I walk past a body of water so I can hear a sound while my waterskins are refilled, I might have to commit ritual suicide.
(23) I know Pool of Radiance did it this way, but the lack of anything useful on the minimap is kinda crap. I want icons telling me what is where.
(24) Tried to go into the catacombs, was told I can’t go there, so now I am wandering around town, being attacked by rangers and drakes, totally indigent, washing windshields with an old rag.

9

Question about the game: Are the levels fixed, or randomly generated?

10

Question about the game: Are the levels fixed, or randomly generated?

11

Hi Peterb,

Thanks for the time you put into this. I’ll try to address everything. Good thing there’s an enhanced edition coming up (should fix the purely aesthetic issues like buttons). I can also fix a few of the glitches you mention.

I Character rolling interface lacks useful feedback. For example, you can pick a character’s race and gender before rolling, but then when you hit ®oll, the race and gender reset to null. [/I]
Should be easy to keep the race / gender choices & just erase class (new rolls can result in a previously chosen class not being a valid choice anymore).
I Only male character portraits in the dwarf/elf/human interface. Not critical, but a polish issue.[/I]
Will have one for each class / race / gender combination.
I alt-tabbing works! yay.[/I]
I On inventory screen “Equiped” should be spelled “Equipped”[/I]
OOPS
I The inventory screen looks like it could have been lifted directly from Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (Note: not complaining, but if I encounter a “Blade Cusinart” you’re gonna owe someone royalties.)[/I]
No blade cuisinart but I’m not sure I agree with you. Might and Magic 2 is actually even closer and has a cuisinart (no blade but…). Anyway, I haven’t heard of any dispute between Sir-Tech and NWC over this. It’s true though that I can’t claim much creativity for the GUI.
I Character rolling overall: I spent many hours playing the original Wizardry and Bard’s Tale, and I think I speak for a lot of us when I say: really, I’m sort of done with rolling a character’s numbers (as opposed to picking skills, class, etc). I sort of want my choices during the game to affect my character’s skills, not my tolerance for sitting and hitting ‘r’ more times than someone else. I know it’s a feature of the classic genre, but you should at least consider whether it’s one worth keeping. At a minimum, I’d suggest that you have the game optionally start with a “quick-start” party or prerolled characters that can just be renamed or used.[/I]
This Ive heard before. Underworld will remain this way but not the sequel.
I Polish issue - the square textures on some of the buttons don’t fit some of the roundrect ‘buttons’, making them look like peas rattling around a shell. Button style overall is inconsistent (poster boy: the “Add to Party / Back” buttons on the initial inventory screen lack borders/buttons completely, making them stick out badly)[/I]
Will keep an eye on that for enhanced, but must admit it doesn’t strike me at all, even looking back to it. Not sure the buttons should connect with the borders as they would seem crowded to me. But I’ll see.
I It was completely unclear to me that De(m)ote meant “Delete” until I got the warning sheet.[/I]
I know it’s a stretch but it had to be a letter beyond ‘L’ (character slots A-L) and couldn’t be ‘Remove’ because that was for removing a character from a party without deleting it.
I In the game proper the VERY FIRST THING I did was hit (M)aps, then (Z)oom out to a completely blank “Highnest” screen – and flailed around as I couldn’t tell what key I needed to hit to exit. After trying every other key on the keyboard, turns out it’s “Return”. That screen should have some indicator explaining how to exit. Also, “esc” should always exit any modal screen like that. Always. No matter what. 100% of the time. Absolutely. Forever. And if anyone thinks otherwise, they’re wrong, and should be punished severely.[/I]
When I read this I immediately loaded the game up and checked. Because I know I had put clear instructions at the bottom of the screen. I got to the maps and saw you were right, so I checked the code. Then I remembered what happened. For v1.06 I changed the screen size there (reduced it to 1024*768 and left the instructions at 1050. So they’re there, but below your screen :) Thanks for the catch, will be fixed!

The reason you only see Highnest is because only the buttons corresponding to maps you’ve visited appear. When you enter the catacombs and check the maps, two buttons appear (Highnest + catacombs). Eventually that screen fills up. The idea is that if you’re in Highnest but have visited other maps zooming out allows you to select a map you’re not currently in and RETURN opens that map. So you can locate an area you need to return to using the maps. Big fail on my part there thanks again.
I “(M)aps closed” is a weird way to phrase that, because it reads like a status, not an action. If you want to preserve the ‘m’ key for that, just say ‘Close (m)ap’. And also make the ESC key do that. Because that’s what it’s for.[/I]
There’s a bad reason for this. At first I tried making it so that the hotkey be the first letter. Then I gave up on this because it was a stupid way to waste my time (O§tions, De(m)ote came later) but never thought of coming back to this one, which should indeed be Close (m)aps.
I The introductory “There are three ways to move your party…” popup only appeared (for me) after I took my first step by guessing that the arrow keys would work. It should appear one turn earlier to actually be useful. I predict some of your users will want to use W-A-S-D, but I don’t particularly care either way. [/I]
I kind of figured arrow keys would be an easy catch, much easier than the mouse wheel or IJKL options. I stay away from WASD because I hate them, hate them with a passion, having a European AZERTY keyboard. I hate how games use WASD, which for me (and many others) means moving forward with a key located below the move back key. Too many US developpers overlook this!! :)
I Just went through a door and got a (very nice) high-res art of a devil. Is there any way to re-play interstitial scenes like that after the fact? Would be a nice feature.[/I]
Replay feature added to list of upgrades to implement.
I Turned around south after that scene and discovered i was ALREADY IN the INN, which wasn’t clear to me at all. I thought I started in a city street. Might want to make that clear somehow.[/I]
I guess it would help understand why opening those doors make people angry… I think I’ll add ‘do not disturb’ when people run into those doors. That should be reasonably explicit. Thanks for the idea!
I First combat in the arena! Nice way to learn the game, but I wish someone had directed me here. Immediately I realize that my party is in the wrong order, and I have no idea how to reorder them.[/I]
There’s an (O)rder function but it doesn’t work in combat. Which now makes me think that perhaps it should…
I GACK! My characters don’t start with their items equipped? OK, guess I’ll do that in combat.[/I]
I guess that’s just dumb isn’t it? Something else that comes straight from MM1-2 but probably shouldn’t.
I I think this monkey tried to hit me but the results flitted by too quickly for me to tell what happened.[/I]
I’ve sped that up and slowed it down at every new version. I think it’s time to implement a meter and leave it up to the player.
I You’re making really really poor use of your visual space here in the character list. So to take one example, at the bottom of the screen I see this:


(1) Fighter  |  (2) Fighter
(3) Paladin  |  (4) Rogue
(5) Priest   |  (6) Sorcerer

That’s terrible. It’s terrible because I have to look at it and think about the numbers when instead I should be able to intuit the order at a glance. In fact, when I first saw it, I assumed the left side was the ‘front’ row, and the right side was the ‘back’ row. I would either order things in exactly that way, or else do it visually:

(1) Fighter | (2) Fighter | (3) Fighter
(4) Priest | (5) Rogue | (6) Sorcerer

If the game has a “front row / back row” like Wizardry (I haven’t figured this out yet), that let’s me immediately answer the question “Which row are the characters in?” at a glance.[/I]

Think three rows :)

You’re also indicating whose turn it is by putting a “Maximillian’s Turn” prompt at the bottom of that box. Again, you could do that visually: make the name/status boxes for all non-active character a darker grey, and the active character bright white, or something similar. You save real estate, and make it easier for the user to see what’s what.

That could work… To be honest it seemed like low added value when I considered it (which I did), given that real estate wasn’t needed for anything else.

I Trying the middle tier of the arena, two of my characters died. I wonder how I resurrect them, or if that’s even possible.[/I]

Yes, visit the temple. Gold is needed though so if you die early on a reload will be the only option. You can save anywhere/anytime btw.

[I]OK, that’s enough for a first cut. I think you’ve got an interesting game here, and I’ll probably buy it when it’s out on Mac OS X, on general principles if nothing else. I do encourage you to think carefully about what aspects of the game can or should be ‘primitive’ out of wanting to be true to the genre, and which aspects of the game need to be polished further. It’s easy to fall into the trap of leaving something unpolished and (to take a ridiculous example that you did not do) saying “Well, Temple of Apshai made the user look up flavor text in a paper manual (“Read entry #28”), so I can totally get away with that also!” You can’t. The people you’re appealing might want the nostalgic experience of playing a game that refers to the games they played when they were 13, but if you actually hew too closely to that game you’ll create something that can’t actually be played by someone with a job.

Hope this helps, and good luck. I’ll give more comments if I have any.[/I]

Thanks for your time and feedback!

12

Levels are fixed.

13

The reason I saved up for an artist is that all I could afford for the early releases was stock art. It seems much of those are made by 15 yr olds :)

14

I If you’re going to use coordinates like “Please report to the Highest guard location at 10,12” in quests, then put the coordinates on the main screen, not just on the map.[/I]
Note added to add to the top-right minimap.
I I sort of want some sort of in-game help. Like, what’s a “rune”, and why am I memorizing it?[/I]
I’ve been uncomfortable with that. There’s an access to the online help from the game (opens in browser). There’s quite a lot of text for it to be in-game. I’d have to use a small font that would clash with the rest… I’m not making any promises on this one.
I If the game is seriously going to make me wait for 5 seconds every time I walk past a body of water so I can hear a sound while my waterskins are refilled, I might have to commit ritual suicide.[/I]
Actually it only does that if your waterskins aren’t full and there isn’t much water beyond the town…
I I know Pool of Radiance did it this way, but the lack of anything useful on the minimap is kinda crap. I want icons telling me what is where.[/I]
Noteable places are flagged in the full-size map. The minimap seemed kind of cramped for anything other than small symbols.
I Tried to go into the catacombs, was told I can’t go there, so now I am wandering around town, being attacked by rangers and drakes, totally indigent, washing windshields with an old rag.[/I]
SPOILER - Have a chat with… someone (NPC).

Edit - It’s 2:45AM here. I’ll check back in tomorrow if there are other questions / suggestions.
Thanks again,
Charles

15

Tried the demo. Pretty fun for and old school throwback RPG. Definitely rough around the edges though. After a few restarts I spent some time learning things that weren’t immediately known. I’ll list my notables like peterb

  1. I had to figure out what to do with water.
  2. I didn’t realize that when you buy food, you then need to share it.
  3. As for the catacombs quest, I don’t mind that it charged me 100 gold to gain access, but when I did this at level 1, I couldn’t open the locked door. I went back at level 2 and had to pay again! This time, my rogue was able to unlock it. Wonder if I didn’t have a rogue in my party, how would you get into that area? If you’re going to charge the player to get in there, why put a locked door as the only access? (Demo ends here)
  4. I really miss not having a shared inventory. So much UI manipulation to move items around.
  5. Staying at the Inn should heal the party.
  6. If there are 3 rows, why can’t my back row fire slings at an enemy? It says they are too close.

Short list so far. All in all, it’s fun, but in today’s era of $5 to $10 indie games that are really good, I’m not sure $20 is the right price for this one.

16

Couldn’t agree more. I had never heard of this until it was mentioned in the Grimrock thread, so I went over to the site, checked out the screenies, though the combination of M&M1-era style art and photo-realistic hires images was an abomination, checked out the price tag, and promptly closed the site.

rezaf

17

1. I had to figure out what to do with water.
A lot of things like this require reading the online manual (resting is mentionned in Journey and Holy Water in spell requirements). There might be a way to include a user-friendly ingame manual but making the information more accessible this way seems like a daunting task.

2. I didn’t realize that when you buy food, you then need to share it.
Unless everyone buys some but yes, resting requires 1 unit per character. I think I’ll just make the merchant fill all the bags at once next time.

3. As for the catacombs quest, I don’t mind that it charged me 100 gold to gain access, but when I did this at level 1, I couldn’t open the locked door. I went back at level 2 and had to pay again! This time, my rogue was able to unlock it. Wonder if I didn’t have a rogue in my party, how would you get into that area? If you’re going to charge the player to get in there, why put a locked door as the only access? (Demo ends here)
There’s another way down that costs nothing.

4. I really miss not having a shared inventory. So much UI manipulation to move items around.
I’m reworking the entire inventory management for the next one. That said moving things from one party member to the next was the norm for a long time (all the way to Jagged Alliance 2, Icewind Dale… in the late 90s) so I didn’t think much of it but a few people have mentionned this before you.

5. Staying at the Inn should heal the party.
Will do on the enhanced version. early on (v1.0) the inn was the only way to save. It’s purpose was defeated with the implementation of save anywhere so it needs a plus.

6. If there are 3 rows, why can’t my back row fire slings at an enemy? It says they are too close.
I guess that depends how you imagine it. For me even with three rows melee would be messy and the enemy too close to allow clear shots (except for the archer, proficient enough in ranged weapons to compensate). I guess it could go either way.

Short list so far. All in all, it’s fun, but in today’s era of $5 to $10 indie games that are really good, I’m not sure $20 is the right price for this one.
Actually the norm for indie RPGs is $20-30. Dredmoor and Cthuluu are noteable exceptions but they cut a deal with networks (Steam & PSN). They can sell 10 000 copies for $5. I’ll only sell a few hundred, at best a couple thousand, no matter what (150 so far).

I guess it all comes down to whether or not people will want to support the creation of niche games that very few people bother making, or if Steam and the like give more of us the light of day. Of course in its current state Underworld didn’t have a chance, although it was listed on Gamersgate. That was the event that made me decide to risk hiring an artist (which I may very well regret, but the lure of trying makes noodles more appetizing).

18

It’s alright but it ain’t no grimoire.*

  • did I do it right?
19

Cleve will be thrilled :)

20

I started a dev blog I’ll be using to announce progress updates for the enhanced edition, as well as the sequel if anyone is interested. The first post is up with a screenshot.

I can’t post links yet though, just look for the news section in the nav bar :)