Clint already told Gene, so it’s all good.
…what? Aaron, there was nothing badum-tsch worthy about that sentence.
So, question… do negs work when women use them on guys, or do guys generally have healthier self-esteem?
I would bet they work equally well - if a guy is used to being fawned over.
Raife
6046
Negs work fine on guys, women just generally wait to use them until after they are in the relationship.
I guess the ol’ hard-to-get routine is sort of the female version of the neg.
Reed
6048
Negs aren’t supposed to be used on women with low self-esteem though. Quite the opposite. Ravenight is right, the point is to disarm or challenge women who are used to guys fawning over them. Why aren’t you offering to buy her a drink or telling her how beautiful she is like most do? Instead, if you’re busting her chops (playfully), it indicates confidence and that you have options. Or that you’re not hitting on her. It lowers the bitch shield, as the PUAs call it. Heh. They scale negs based on the person. Someone who doesn’t get approached a lot won’t have that shield, and therefore they wouldn’t neg them or would only do so lightly.
I find this interesting because they’ve essentially broken it down to a science and are sort of leveling the playing field. Many (most?) PUAs are self-proclaimed nerds and introverts. What they are doing is emulating what “alpha males” do naturally.
Raife
6050
I know, it’s like his third one.
ZekeDMS
6051
Alpha male? Bitch shield? Leveling the playing field?
All of that reads to me like “Women do mean things, and are mean, and don’t like me! So it’s okay to manipulate them and treat them badly as long as it gets me laid, because that’s what they do.”
The most consistent thing I notice about the PUAs and PUA teachings is dehumanization. She’s not a person, she’s a toy. Part of a supposed game.
Giant megaintroverted nerd as I am, I’ve dated several women way, way the hell out of my league, so to speak. You know how? I treated them like people when we met. I didn’t neg anyone, I didn’t go C&F, I didn’t jump into any manipulative bullshit. I treated them like actual human beings, and we got along great.
All this PUA stuff, while I don’t deny that on the surface it seems like something to help out the nervous and introverted, often ends up coming down to being a successful manipulator, ignoring the fact that there’s a person there. It tends to be about the bedpost notches, not a stable relationship.
Now this isn’t to say there’s not some people it’s helped to find something that matters, but that’s not the expected outcome from what I’ve seen. It’s the other end of the old “Nice Guy™” thing (I’m wonderful, I’m a great guy, I’m so damn NICE, SO WHY ISN’T SHE DATING ME I FUCKING DESERVE HER FOR BEING SO NICE).
And it’s exactly why women can get defensive, because they’ve had an asshole or two put them or their friends through the pickup. PUAs are claiming to be the cure, but I think they’re the cause.
WarrenM
6052
I think what it comes down to is goals. The PUA crap is intended to get you laid. Actual relationships need to be approached differently.
You think it’s the cause of what, exactly? I don’t take those guys too seriously, but I think there are some good ideas in there, and you don’t have to be a full-on shithead to learn a few things from them. Attracting the opposite sex is a game, really, and the PUA’s have learned to use that to their advantage. I don’t believe in being a total jerk to attract women, but it’s true that being a really swell dude isn’t going to get you anywhere, either. You have to be confident, fun, spontaneous, and interesting. PUA techniques are a way to get over yourself and learn to treat the process like the game that it really is.
ZekeDMS
6054
It’s also taught under the guise of getting a relationship, which is certainly an issue.
I never even heard of this pickup artist stuff until very recently (although I was aware of the genre). How is it that everyone knows all about it all of a sudden?
Ah, see, this is the problem. A game is only legitimate if everyone’s aware of the rules AND aware that it’s even being played at all. If your strategy is one of dishonesty and deception (as the PUA strategies are), then if the person you’re using these strategies on is expecting your approach to be honest and up-front… well, then it’s a shitty thing to do.
Granted, from my point of view, no one should expect anyone else to be honest and upfront in this day and age. But then again, as previously established, I’m a bitter and cynical misanthrope whose faith in humanity in this regard has pretty much taken a busman’s holiday.
Ideally, people shouldn’t be dumb enough to fall for the obviously insincere approaches, they should be self-aware enough not to buy into the “neg” strategy, and on the converse side, people should be decent enough to not be total douches and treat dating like a scoring game without consequences.
And there’s my moment of complete pie-in-the-sky naivete, because people are inherently douchebags and everyone’s a jerk.
Reed and delirium added to “creepy jerks” file.
WarrenM
6059
I don’t believe in being a total jerk to attract women, but it’s true that being a really swell dude isn’t going to get you anywhere, either
Again, it depends on goals. If you’re trying to pick up girls at a bar/party, maybe being a jerk is a good strategy.
However, I didn’t “neg” my wife or be anything other than real with her from the first time we met. Seems to have worked out pretty good.
ElGuapo
6060
I’ve never read a pick up artist book but I see where they are coming from. If a few techniques build self confidence and allow you to talk to women, great. What I can’t stand is the manipulation and seeking out low self esteem or especially trying to break down self esteem. Most women have a hard enough time with their self esteem already.
I think of it kind of like counting cards at blackjack. Sure, you may win a bit more often but doesn’t it suck all the fun if why you are there in the first place?
