The 1619 Project

Why would I view it that way? What exactly has happened that you think I would trust the same guys in charge of everything over one woman, and those who worked with her, who put everything on the line, her career, her life, everything about her is now an open target from so-called allies, white supremacists and those who want to maintain power. What are they doing that warrants trust more than what she is trying and actually is coming close to succeeding in doing? You can’t even imagine how disappointing it was to see this topic come up… like this here. Almost another claim to remove politics from… checks notes, history, slavery, economics, the history of black people, the voice of black people… you know life itself.

We tried your way… for generations. This is where we are because of that. I don’t think we can survive any more sit-back and we know better approaches. Disagree with any facts she made, sure. Question her conclusions to her face. Take it to her. She will engage people. Don’t turn this into another argument as if the way history and the study of history isn’t completely broken the way actually is today. The American education system failed us, continues to fail us, and it wasn’t accidental. And no, that doesn’t mean that every person in academia, or who prints textbooks, or who recites MLK’s speech is to blame for that… it’s systematic.

Capitalism isn’t a religion. Regulations, prioritizing societal goals over other priorities is not a dismantling of capitalism. Capitalism is just an economic structure, and we already prioritize industries, programs… lots of things take precedence over capitalism and it is no more dismantled today than it was when we allowed actual living human beings be labeled as property. Heck we have several countries in Europe that absolutely have capitalism as their economic structures that people over here point at and call socialism because it’s become the bogeyman that means whatever the hell people want it to mean so long as it means more votes.

Yes, indeed; I have had conversations privately with my students and what you say is definitely what I have seen.

If capitalism means “some people profit off the backs of other people”, then slavery is a built in feature. Maybe there is some theoretical model that disagrees but I haven’t seen it work otherwise, so that broad level definition works for me.

I have to disagree with you here. The only reason racism was created and incorporated into the DNA of this country was because it was part of the economic, social, and cultural foundations necessary to create and sustain the people with power, whose power itself came originally from the products of slave labor. While it morphed into different degrees of political, social, and cultural power as well, at its root slavery was a system of labor. Racism was invented to justify, sustain, and expand it. After the end of slavery, surprise, system racism continued. Why? It was useful to divide and conquer the working class along racial lines, in order to sustain the elites whose economic, and hence political power, derived from having a cowed, subservient, and politically impotent population who could be either scared into voting for them, or acceptably disenfranchised. Race did both of those things.

So, while you can have system racism, somewhere, without reference to capitalism and the privileging of private property above all else, in the USA, those things were intimately associated with slavery and systemic racism.

But the people we are talking about convincing aren’t just white supremacists, or people in charge of everything.

There are lots of people who support dismantling systemic racism, but aren’t socialists or communists. Lots of those people aren’t even white.

I honestly don’t understand what you are talking about here, or how it relates to what I’ve said. I feel like you are arguing against someone else.

Sure… But I don’t understand how this relates to what I’ve said here.

It capitalism means, “summoning Demons with the blood of babies,” then baby sacrifice is a built in feature!

No, man, that’s not in fact what capitalism means. Capitalism does not mean that you are allowed to murder and enslave people. Obviously. That’s insane.

Capitalism is an economic system. Things like the way we assign rights to people, is based on the political system. Certainly one influences the other, but it does not logically follow that capitalism will lead to slavery… Slavery predates capitalist economic systems. The kinds of dehumanization and oppression that we saw in slavery exists in non capitalist systems.

Absolutely true, but that’s a different statement.

Simple recognition of the historical context in America is different than suggesting that the solution to the systemic racism that persists today, involves dismantling capitalism. Ones does not imply the other.

Oh, yeah, it is not that simple, of course. But I would say that you cannot dismantle systemic racism in this country without significant changes to the existing capitalist paradigm.

Not what I said. Some profit off the backs of other people. Not all that controversial a statement when talking about capitalism.

And here I think you are dreaming. The wage slaves of today would be real slaves but for some legislation which has nothing to do with capitalism. Hell, I’m not sure the shirts we wear and screens we interact with aren’t made with slave labor.

I suppose it depends on how much work you are doing with the term, “existing capitalist paradigm”.

If we are simply suggesting implementing practices from social democracies, to help address existing inequalities, that’s still capitalism (to me, at least, the cries of communism from the GOP not withstanding).

Also, unrelated, Google tried to type succotash instead of social, up above. Who the hell is out there saying succotash to the extent that Google is suggesting it over social?

Yes, because capitalism is merely the economic system, not the political system, as I said here:

You don’t have to be a white supremacist to support white supremacist culture. It’s built into many if not most of our founding systems. There are a lot of people who think they support dismantling systematic racism, who say they support that but when it comes to actually giving something up, risking something to do that… no they don’t.

I feel like you keep approaching the problems of studying history and complexities of what emerged due to historic and ongoing events as if that approach you’re suggesting is… somehow new. As if it’s not just another notch in a long line of well we could but first let’s make sure we don’t touch on something I feel is precious to me first. I mean you’re acting like the link between capitalism and slavery was just suggested now. This idea is not new at all, but the perspective is new because no one was going to allow a black woman to talk about it way back when. And you cannot just divorce an economic system that helped thrust a nation into a world power and try to say well let’s review it without these very important elements.

You cannot remove American Slavery and capitalism when discussing American History. They are key components.

Ok, I really think we are talking part each other here, so I think we need to establish some basic common ground.

You agree, presumably, that addressing the problems involving systemic racism in our society involves convincing a majority of the population to adopt policy changes. We are in agreement here?

I am not sure why you are asking this question.

The 1619 Project which largely focuses on the founding ideologies and systems that built America and continue to exist today have very strong ties to slavery and the suppression of black people. It’s a reframing of our country’s history often through the perspective and voices of individuals who have been actively prevented from the retelling of our history. How are you going to skip to policy making if we’re still arguing over whether or not a country that constantly lies, in print and in the education system itself and yes up to and continues to do so today, about our history. And while of that is happening, while we know those lies are there, is outraged that a piece of rather remarkable work came to light with some exaggerations and some inaccuracies.

We’re not talking about adopting policies, we’re talking about trying to correct a world view, one that ignores and warps the roles of African Americans and race itself in our history in order to allow a white majority to own things that doesn’t just belong to them, to take possession if idea like equality and freedom and democracy while still practicing behaviors that undermine all of that. It’s an good but imperfect effort to correct history not get someone to vote on some politicians next pet project. Step 1 is not new policy, step 1 is going through the work, and it is work, to try and reconcile what’s been told, sold, printed and retold as a truth, and understanding it’s not. No one can even hope to create policy for anyone to adopt if that level of work is deemed… just too much.

We don’t need to vote on whether or not something like the Tulsa Race Massacre happened. We know it did. It might take awhile for the majority to accept that, longer to process it, and even longer than that to understand why it matters, but I don’t know what you think you can do to convince someone who looks at the and says… nope, not in America.

The majority didn’t even accept interracial marriage. The courts had to do tell them they had no choice but to accept it as a legal reality. So I am not sure what policy you think Project 1619 is actually pushing, but I believe Hannah-Jones is pushing for a more accurate understanding of our history by presenting a more comprehensive picture of it.

And yes, we’re talking past each other because there are what 90 posts here, talking about errors made, criticism of specific facts and links to the knee jerk response to the Critical Race Theory (came out in the 70s, like 50 years old not new at all)… and I am just sitting here thinking that there are clear statements in there that The Flag isn’t our flag, we have a Olympian who turned away from the national anthem just this week in part because we know, she knows liberty for all wasn’t literally true, and I think some of the population knows the White House was built by slaves and I just wonder… is this being internalized at all… or is this another one of those moments when someone raises their hand and says what about the solution moments instead of… help me understand this better moments.

When I was a child — I must
have been in fi fth or sixth grade — a
teacher gave our class an assignment
intended to celebrate the diversity
of the great American melting pot.
She instructed each of us to write a
short report on our ancestral land
and then draw that nation’s fl ag. As
she turned to write the assignment
on the board, the other black girl in
class locked eyes with me. Slavery
had erased any connection we had
to an African country, and even if we
tried to claim the whole continent,
there was no ‘‘African’’ fl ag. It was
hard enough being one of two black
kids in the class, and this assignment
would just be another reminder of
the distance between the white kids
and us. In the end, I walked over to
the globe near my teacher’s desk,
picked a random African country
and claimed it as my own.
I wish, now, that I could go back
to the younger me and tell her that
her people’s ancestry started here,
on these lands, and to boldly, proudly, draw the stars and those stripes
of the American fl ag.
We were told once, by virtue of
our bondage, that we could never
be American. But it was by virtue
of our bondage that we became the
most American of all.

I don’t understand how someone can read something like this and not have questions if they did not experience it themselves. I think skipping over this moment is how we get to bad policies, whether you can get the majority to vote on them or not.

I’m trying to establish some common ground so we can understand each other. It’s not a trick, I assumed that the answer was yes, but maybe it’s not?

Perhaps that is the disconnect, as I was talking about addressing some of the issues that the 1619 project attempted to illuminate the historical context of.

Capitalism, like communism, is a political economy. You cannot separate the political aspects from the economic. One informs and enables the other.

That’s the authors view, her intent, her purpose, correcting a world view. Sure that can lead to policies, maybe, some day… how do you expect to to talk about policies when you skip over the most important pieces of the project, when you don’t really own it as we all should, when you don’t internalize this. This project is not a ballot to vote on, it’s voices to be heard and experiences to absorb, and when you don’t understand something, can’t really feel it… that’s when you ask, when find voices trust that don’t sound like you.

Want to talk about the 1619 Project, and don’t feel feel comfortable about the slave ships, the auctions blocks or breeding… why not start with one of the weirdest things in American History, the plantations themselves and the fact we have so many treated like happy tourist attraction, and it wasn’t until the 21st century there is pushback against that… even then, there is anger when that happens. Capitalist society… back then, plantations not a minor of piece of it. The Project addresses it :

Cotton was to the 19th century what oil was to the 20th

Perhaps you’re reading this at work,
maybe at a multinational corporation that runs like a soft-purring
engine. You report to someone, and
someone reports to you. Everything
is tracked, recorded and analyzed,
via vertical reporting systems,
double- entry record-keeping and
precise quantifi cation. Data seems
to hold sway over every operation.
It feels like a cutting-edge approach
to management, but many of these
techniques that we now take for
granted were developed by and for
> large plantations

Those are Org Charts, you know the thing we all love at work all over the place.

You want to remove capitalism from that? I don’t know how anyone could read this entire Project and see that as possible.

Can’t really figure out what to reply to, or even how to put it, but using marxist critique and saying capitalism is intertwined with a particular case of exploitation is a bit removed from supporting the communist revolution. And what is funny, although not so much in the current conversation, is that by equating any criticism with socialism, defenders are just ending up promoting that the system can only break and not bend, and lending more support to any and all social and economic change.
Of which this is one, getting support that, at least to dumb me, would have thought would be hard to go as far, because it’s so hard to hear.
But no, there will be no “end of capitalism” anytime soon, no one even knows how that would work in a modern society.

I think you definitely can separate them, despite their influence on each other, as demonstrated by the fact that you can have different combinations of political and economic systems.

Those same types of things existed in the soviet union, too. Or ancient china. Or the Egyptian pharaohs. Monarchs and emperors throughout history all tracked data and had bureaucratic systems for organizing and managing labor, both free and enslaved. There’s nothing inherently capitalist about that stuff.

That being said, my original comment was about hangers on to the 1619 project who used it as an excuse to dismantle capitalism, not about the historical content of the project itself, so that’s where the major disconnect came from I think .

That’s not separation, really, IMO, that’s degrees of influence. Perhaps it is a half full/half empty sort of thing, in terms of perception. Capitalism though depends on the privileging of the concept of private property, which in turn has a cascade effect on law, systems, philosophy, etc. But of course, as you note, none of this is simple or one for one.

The privileging of the concept of private property over what? What does it mean to not privilege the concept of private property?

The concept of private property is generally regarded as a universal human right. Do you dispute that?

Do you claim that capitalism privileges private property over other human rights? Do you claim this is inherent within capitalism, or inherent only within some forms of capitalism?

This is spectacularly naive. Also anti-historical.