Well, at least that stupid Zmey is now dead.

Also, there are two fully fitted out harbingers running loose in the world, selling girl guide cookies: The Will and The Word. There may be more.

I’ll get right on that, but first I’ve got a bird problem I need to take care of.

Well, if it was as epic as the score graph suggests, I really wish I’d seen your battle…

I am stuck for 36 hours without my laptop. Someone tell me what happened!

Man, I didn’t have a chance to see the turn till this morning. Scribble, are we allowed to talk about the game yet or are we still waiting?

What are we going to do about qt3anon? Do you want to just restart with the same map/nations or just call it gg?

QT3Anon

Yes, it’s game over unfortunately. In a way, Niefelheim won it. In another, more actual way, noone won. Feel free to discuss the game now, what little there was of it.

I can set up a new game if everyone is still interested, with the same settings - but don’t think we’ll do the exact same nations. Everyone should choose nations anew if we play again.

Well, not the exact same settings - I’d put the VP threshold at 4 instead of 2. :)

I was C’tis. I took an awake Saurolich pretender for expansion and early defense against the many cold nations in this game. Paths were A2W2E2D5, Dom9, scales O3 P-3 H3 D1 L-1 M1. The plan was to use my pretender for expansion and start site searching early. Worked okay; lots of gems, early forts.

However, I had some trouble with my starting location: The area of the map where I had the most space for expansion was cut off from my cap by two forests. Expansion wasn’t as fast as it could have been. Also, this map seems to have lots of border mountains (where C’tis can only build Tel Cities, bleh) and no mountain provinces whatsoever (where C’tis can build Hillforts). On the plus side, Niefelheim was on the other side of the map; excellent news for me.

At the time of the VP snafu I had just made some skull mentors and was going for a research sprint. There had been some minor skirmishes with Ulm earlier – I’d be curious to learn whether I managed to kill a fort construction site when I took (30) – but I interpreted Ulm’s recent attack on (12) as an attempt to get through to Tir. If that was incorrect, I probably would have been in trouble because I picked a fight with Kailasa at the other end of my realm at the same time.

If I were to play this nation again, I’d probably change my pretender paths to F2A2D6 for better scales and access to the Phoenix Pyre/Mistform/Soul Vortex combo later, sacrificing Quicken Self and generally flushing C’tis’ rudimentary water game down the toilet.

Thanks all for the game, it was a lot of fun while it lasted. :)

Bah! I take your starting ‘troubles’ and raise it to the level of Hell…heim.

Yes, I was Helheim and, bad puns aside, I got a shocker of a start that really forced my hand on a few decisions.

I went an awake Great Enchantress:

Dominion 4 with flat Order and Productivty, Cold 1, Death 2, Misfortune 1 and Magic 1. Sacrificed a litte on the scales to get the triple bless.

The plan was to utilise Helheim’s excellent mage commanders (glamour, stealthy, sacred, high defense) with my nice defensive blesses and rush construction to roll out some cheap thugs, which would be supported by sacred Valkyries and Helhirdings (which I expected I never would have been able to afford in large quantities regardless of scales).

Then I got this:

Joy! Small island with limited expansion options and masses of Heavy Cavalry to my north. I knew I needed to get off the island ASAP. It would take too long to build an army to take on the HC without unsatisfactory losses to my expensive troops, I was concerned the longdead would mean some unexpected magic users, so I deceided on south:

Hmm, great. Tir na n’Og is already there. Too early for conflict and there are a few troops there, so I’ll try the western bridge:

Bugger, Ulm is already there. The very astute amongst you will also notice that this particular province is a real gem - a keeper for sure. You can’t see in the screenshot above, but scouting has also revealed that Niefelheim already controls the province across my northern bridge.

It’s turn 8. I have four provinces with stuff all income and I am hemmed in on all three sides. At least my research is leading by a significant margin and I have already cranked out a few items for my commanders.

I consider my options:

1 - Turtle on the island, continue to prioritise construction and get myself water access via my pretender.

2 - Start a fight.

The Heavy Cavalry still worries me and blocks access to Niefelheim, so I consider my other targets - Ulm and Tir na n’Og. I am flagging in all areas except research, to which Tir na n’Og are second. Ulm is way ahead of me in Provinces, Income and Army Size. Tir na n’Og is much closer in those, and in fact has very little army to speak of:

I don’t like the idea of turtling, so Tir na n’Og is my target. It is not immediately obvious, but this turns out to be a catastrophic decision. The initial strike is successful, but confronts me with another difficult choice:

Left or right? Ideally this province would have been a beachhead to get me off the island to continue expansion. If I could have gone one way and left Tir na n’Og in peace, I probably would have (and hoped he did not retaliate). Problem is, if Tir na n’Og is on both sides of me, I have not really achieved much by just getting off the island. I randomly decide to press east. The resistance was weak and I still don’t know why I shoud not be attacking Tir na n’Og.

Well, well. A fort! Tir na n’Og’s capital no less, looking decidedly vacant. Again, little resistance and this presents an opportunity I cannot pass up. Perhaps the initial problem of the island will drive me to a successful early rush?

Nope. Denied. And so, it is in this and subsequent turns that my error in attacking Tir na n’Og becomes apparent. I did not do any thorough research on Tir na n’Og (I blame the wiki being down). Turns out they have probably the perfect early counter to my sacred, stealthy, glamoured, high defense mage commanders. As it happens, they have sacred, stealthy, glamoured, high defense mage commanders of their own! My lightly kitted commanders leading a smallish number of support troops are almost useless as battles essentially devolve into our commanders slugging it our until someone gets a lucky hit in (Tir na n’Og in most cases)!

At this stage of the game, Tir na n’Og also has the distinct advantage of a decent economy, which he proceeds to use in conjunction with his own stealthy troops to back raid provinces I originally took from him and marshal his forces for the counter attack.

I pretty much know I am doomed and before long it is turn 21:

No economy to speak of and dwindling troops has me defenseless against raiding and a decent sized army is at my doorstep. I have 2 Helhirdings, 13 Valkyries and a spattering of chaffe troops. I do have 3 kitted out thug commanders and access to mistform. I gem up my troops and attack with everything I have, rather than be whittled away by a long siege. I should note I also have about 8 skull mentors back in the lab, which I saw no point in gifting to Tir na n’Og if I was defeated.

So here it is, the only decent battle I will fight this game. Win or lose, my fate is probably sealed.

I actually won this fight with fairly minimal losses, which I was pretty happy about (aside from losing some expensive Svartalf mages). That left me with the plan of retaking the southern province accross the bridge and fortifying it until I could hopefully rebuild my island.

Alas, it was not meant to be as Niefelheim snatched victory.

Lack of proper research into my opponents is probably what killed me in this game, but I feel I got a pretty nerfed start (not that it bothers me, mind you, it is what it is and a quick game is a good game). I felt I had to get off that island, so could devote no time for site searching and had no economy to construct any additional forts. In hindsight, I definitely think I should have either attacked Ulm, despite his superiority in army numbers, or gone for the ocean. Attacking Tir na n’Og should have been the last thing on my mind.

Thanks all and congrats Niefelheim - um, well played?!

And to Ti na n’Og, well played also, you must have been shaking your head wondering why I attacked you!

I played around with a lot of different ideas for Niefelheim, but I eventually fell back on an amazing bless for them. There’s not much better than blessed giants early on and blessed Skratti (with Shrouds) later.

I went with E9N8 for a ridiculous reinvig/regeneration without the berserk.

Expansion went rather well, as it only takes a handful of giants to take out just about any indies. Barbarians are surprisingly effective against them. Heavy Cav melts like butter. Or perhaps freezes and shatters like a banana in liquid nitrogen.

One of my goals in this game was to take an opponents capital as early as possible. From the map’s VP symbols, I knew that my closest opponent was directly to the east, and this turned out to be Ermor. I sent two armies of 7 giants each towards the capital.

The first army disintegrated when Ermor patrolled their capital with Augur Elders and a massive amount of PD. The flares and fireballs did hurt the giants, but what really did them in was the two massive volleys of javelins thrown by the PD. This made me rethink just exactly how many giants I would need. Talking to a few people, I also realized that I would need to change my formations in order to avoid as much of that firepower as possible. I pulled my giants back to the back of the map on Hold-Attack orders so that the fireballs and flares would miss more often (though IIRC, the Augur Elders have Precision 13, and hit fairly often anyway) and I also placed a small group of non-sacreds up front to absorb all of the javelins. This proved to be most effective when Ermor pressed their advantage and attacked into a heavily defended province of mine (I had gathered the second army of 7 giants as well as some stealth monkey troops to absorb javelins, additional reinforcements from the capital, and my other expansion army). I smashed that army, though I couldn’t take out the Augur Elders before they could run.

I also decided at this point to try and swing up north of the mountain range that Ermor’s capital was nestled against and come at them from an angle they weren’t expecting. I had about 25 big blue giants at this point along with a handful of the starting army’s lesser giants. I took a couple provinces from Tir Na Nog, and raided a bit with some leftover monkeys ineffectually. This opened up a can of worms, as Tir was using those gorgeous thugs that Sharaleo already described. Pop on a Mistform and an Ironskin and the things were damned near invincible. My giants surrounded one, and even our cold aura did little good against them, as they routed before dying. The Ris also have the capability to drop cold protection on themselves fairly early on. Tir was a huge threat. So I continued on, trying to leave them alone so that they’d stop raiding. They never did. I formed a couple small armies to take back everything they raided. These would act as a nice reserve if Kailasa, my neighbor to the west, decided to move in with their Yavanas. Speaking of which, Kailasa had an excellent game, grabbing a significant amount of territory and dropping down forts like crazy. I was going to turn on them after Ermor was shattered.

Anyway, my Big McLargeHuge giant army advanced around the north end of the Ermorian mountains, and I dropped 1 PD into everything to see what people were sending against me, and I upped the taxes to 200 knowing that I’d lose this territory soon. My army marched on Ermor’s capital, sat there a turn or two, and then stormed the castle. The giants were unstoppable, and we froze the enemies to death.

While this is the closest thing to a win that I’ve ever had, I do not consider this a victory. It’s a depressing turn of events, as I was doing so well and yet had some seriously strong opposition ahead of me. The Kailasa battles in particular were going to be epic, I believe.

Tir was going to have some serious trouble later on trying to take fortresses. I see that they summoned some armies to go up against Helheim. Their thugs just don’t have enough critical mass to take down walls. Also, Tir, why didn’t you build any forts? Your lands were open to raiding, which i would have done in retaliation for your damnable Ris.

Ah well, maybe the next game’ll be just as good :)

Not as bad as Helheim, Ermor started off in a pretty bad location, on an isthmus between Kailasa, Neifelheim and Tir. Starting on an isthmus is problematic because your troops cant get support easily from the capital.

I went one way and bumped into Tir, went the other way and bumped into some nasty indies(one with a great mother) and it kinda stalled me at about 8 provinces. Then Neifelheim came in and attacked. Our early rounds left each of us bloodied, and when we both withdrew, I figured we were going to live-and-let-live. I focused to the south where I found Kailasa. I had decided I was well advantaged against them, and was forming an army to march when the giants came back.

Niefel slowly circled my capital, and I waited - using every round to bring me closer to the spells i thought i needed to guarantee victory - paralyze, soul slay, phoenix power, and light of the northern stars too, if i could swing it. He was slow, and without mage support, and i probably should have hit him with fight and flee attacks to whittle him down. When he opened a gap, i sent small armies out to retake the lands he had captured - these were successful and so Neifel really wasnt gaining territory, merely trading it.

When he finally hit my capital, i thought i’d be able to hold him. I had all the spells I wanted, including LotNS (which i had just researched the round my capital was open to storming). Flaming arrows would have been ideal, but i had to make a call early on - either i could get ‘everything else’, or i could get flaming arrows. Given that i only had 40 indy archers with short bows, i went for ‘everything else’. I had something like Conj4, Alt2, Evo5, Ench2, Thau5. Unfortunately, the key to it all was LotNS - the successful casting of which would give me i think 6SS a turn, so about 25 scripted soul slays. Given the army was about 40 giants, i figured I’d some pretty good damage. The plan was to hold them at the entrance, and then whittle them down with soul slays, paralyze, falling fires, fire clouds and anything else I could.

Well, that was the plan - reality was a little different. First, my pretender never casted LotNS. It was something of a longshot - since i was just researching conj4 that round, i couldnt script it. Instead I gave him a pearl, set the first round as cast spell, the rest as soul slay and hoped he took the hint. He didnt. He cast body ethereal. So instead of 6SS, i had like 3. Ugh. Problem 2 was caused by Nate doing a really good job of setting his forces up. Placing them all in the rear, and holding, forced my armies to run out the gates like idiots. Principes are pretty good troops for early age, but they cant go toe-to-toe with regenerating giants, and they went down like wheat before a scythe. Problem 3 was really an extension of problem 2 - my mages, placed mid field, and scripted for an enemy at long range in the first round, and medium range by round 3, were out of range for most of their scripts(those that still had valid scripts due to the absence of LotNS) - and so, immediately went offscript. Shadow blasts, planned to arrive to meet an enemy congested at the gate entrance in round 3 or 4, went off on round 1.

So, I ducked into his uppercut, and went out like a light. GGs Nate!

Oh, and I went with a 9S oracle with good scales - like 2 order, 3 prod, 1 magic, 1 cold i think, maybe 7 dom. Endgame was gonna see me warping around, enslaving armies like scribble , or at least, that was the plan… :)

Qt3Anonymous

Ahhh such a sad fate to have all that beautiful preparation ruined by a crazy VP rush and odd settings. Good job Neif. I was almost convinced you did it on purpose! Seemed to me you were sacrificing provinces to TNN with little defence and I couldn’t see your battles with Ermor. I watched the graphs and noted that Ermor was in trouble.

What did I do? Well, first I designed for a potential bless rush. My pretender was and Oracle A6S9 O3S3H3G3L1M1 Dom8. From prior games and much testing it’s a superb bless while being very inexpensive. So I had both viable sacreds and great scales. The plan for G3 was to buy hordes of markata and overtax like a fiend. I had barely started that part.

The beginning of the game didn’t offer the rush target. My first neighbour was Neif and that’s not a happy match up. Fine if Neif rushes into my H3 dominion. Very terrible if I rush into his C3 dominion. So I waited. I had 2 nasty province beside my capital with longdead and other horrors. These bordered Ermor for me and I left them alone a long time in order to expand in the other three directions as much as possible. To take those I needed a buildup of massed archers and slingers which couldn’t occur till fort 2 was built and I was consistently maxing out my Yavana recruitment. So that left the option of an Ermor rush off the table till just last few turns.

My research lagged, but that’s typical of early game Kailasa. You have no choice but to use your Yaksha cap only super magi to lead your armies. They are your only priests until you can make independents and yavana are magic dudes so must have a mage leader. Research would have started picking up right away with my second and third forts. I also had no luck with independent scouts and I’m a scout whore. I just never feel right with a few score of them. So I used a few recruitment turns on markata scouts. Kind of sad but still.

There was also some tremendous luck. I found the Castle Arcanum for my fourth fort with F1 2? FAWES 100% randoms. HOLY CRAP. Kailasa with fire magi. Godly. So given my trouble finding someone to fight I turtled some while building armies. And well, my army was huge and not just chaff.

There were single independents scattered around my borders which I took. When I saw that Neif wasn’t going for them I decided I might as well. And on my southwest border I saw a bit of C’tis but also some a nasty vineman province. Off goes and army. Then the REALLY strange thing. C’tis sends his pretender with a single escort against my huge army of sacreds and archers. Now of course, his pretender was immorstal but what he may not have noticed was the scales flipped to neutral that turn. It could have been a very expensive move. Lucky for him my army moved out to take the vinemen and all he had to fight was a fairly trivial single commander building a fort and some PD. The vinemen were potentially worse than expected with both the Earth Mother and Lord of Fertility commanding. However, massed archers annihilated the vinemen saving my sacreds for mop up. Awe isn’t much good on vinemen.

Of course, I don’t know if you had an idea C’tis, but you did bust up a fort in construction! Bugger me! Oh well, with a net income of 1500 gold a turn + a bit of lucky events and the beginnings of overtax 200% on two gold mines, I wasn’t very worried.

So I think in summary, I had a great design, but also some real luck with early game. Neif ended up too busy to be a problem saved me from my biggest worry. And the tough independents on my other two borders meant I didn’t have to fight until I was very well set up.

Interesting game and I was looking forward to some real wars.

Pyrhic, it’s official. We’re cursed! Every game we play we’re doomed to fight an early war.

Maer, I’m a scout-o-phile as well and found the stealth monkey province and two other indie scout provinces as well. Apparently you were better prepared to fight me than I thought, though.

The only hope in these games is to make it look like someone is weakening so that others jump in to grab provinces before they’re all gone. I was hoping you’d attack Ermor earlier.

I fail to see how I’m somehow to blame for your blatant aggression…

What was interesting was I was all set to go after Kailasa when you came back. I started thinking about Patala, and how I really didnt want to face Kailasa after they had their research up…

There definitely was a white candle on in that province the turn before, and dominion is adjusted after all battles are fought -> no danger. The idea was to kill as much of your stuff as possible and teleport back home for free to pick up some better gear.

I love this! I have done the same thing myself – scripted so that my commander would “take the hint”, as if the commander were real.

Actually tenuki, you might be missing a key piece of the turn resolution sequence. Dominion increase from preaching occurs before movement battles. If I had been preaching with my prophet there you could have lost your pretender.http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Turn_resolution Note step 8. Now I don’t know if you moved or teleported in. I didn’t check. If you teleported you were safe.

One thing some folks don’t realize during a turn, dominion can switch from preaching and then return from dominion spread later. So during certain phases dominion can be quite different from what it shows on the map either turn before or current turn.

Personally, I never use important immortals with only 1 white candle. Too risky for my taste. I prefer 4+.

PS: are you aware that if immortals die and are reborn, they lose all gear?

And Nate: Yeah in the early game I knew that Neif was my big worry. I’ve been bashed senseless by neif before with Kailasa. So I had reverse communion paralyze soul slay mobs ready. Gotta love S3 yogis and S4 gurus for smacking up giants. Add in a bit of cold protection and life is grand.