The Abortion debate

No! You or I aren’t responsible for some random person and their condition. But a mother is responsible for an unborn child because it was her decision that lead to its life.

Holy shit. I’m beginning to understand why Conservative Republicans are Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty.

I’m against the Death Penalty too by the way.

Then we’re never going to see eye to eye. The part where “government interferes with body” is the part where I flat out say no.

I’m sure we wont, but the way I see things now is the that government is interfering with an unborn child by allowing an abortion, to which it has no right to do.

Well, if you’re not willing to personally take fiscal and social responsibility for the life (either through government policy or your own charity), you shouldn’t have a say in whether that pregnancy is carried to term.

I can’t say I like the idea of abortions, but since there is always going to be a demand for them and since the consequences of not allowing them is going to be a lot of dead women at the hands of illegal abortionists and home remedies I’m more comfortable with allowing them and sparing the misery of actual people instead of looking to help potential people.

That’s an odd way to look at it. The fetus is not the one giving up their bodily resources to sustain the life of the mother against their wishes. However, if abortion is outlawed, it will be the mother giving up her bodily resources to sustain the life of the fetus against her wishes. Some people find that acceptable, I absolutely do not.

Where did I say that? I do indeed think both parents have to take fiscal and social responsibility for the child or put the child up for adoption where we should fully fund any government program to make sure the children have proper homes.

You can construct endless chains of causality linking a ‘decision’ to the start of someone else’s life. “If it hadn’t been for Tony at the pizza place, I’d have never met your mother!” Are you obligated to support payments from Tony? Should Tony attend your graduation ceremony, and if he doesn’t will you cry?

It could be that a mother has -no- a priori responsibility to her unborn child, making that relationship so much more fraught with peril. I’ll send my mom an email - For not flushing me during those nine months… Thanks!

But again its a result of the mothers choice, not an some kind of natural occurring infection. That’s where taking responsibility comes in, the baby did not ask to be conceived.

Outlawing abortion does reduce the number of abortions performed… but it also increases the fatalities related to illegal, unsafe abortions.

The rhetoric reads something along the lines of “trade in the right for your daughters”.

It’s a slippery slope in both directions.

I understand that you see it that way, and on that particular piece we will not agree. I just found approach to that position interesting.

You said you aren’t responsible for some random person, then how do you have any say in what that pregnant woman does? Why is an adult life worth less than a fetus’ life? A fetus is not self aware. Local pounds probably put down more animals–which have more intelligence than a fetus–every year.

Personally, I’m not a fan of abortion. I’m not out encouraging woman to have abortions and I tend to lean pro-life, but it’s not my place to tell a woman to have a child or not.

True, but that works both ways. My mother’s doctors recommended she have an abortion and my sister left my mother because she had me rather than an abortion. Sometimes I think my mother made the wrong choice. It’s not always a blessing to be born.

Conception is not an causal linking to someones life, it is a direct result of two people’s decision.

This discussion moves too fast.

What about an uninformed decision or failed contraceptives?

True I’m not responsible for some random person but I am responsible for my child. And a fetus life is just as valuable as any adult, that’s the Pro-Life platform ;-)

My mother’s doctors recommended she have an abortion and my sister left my mother because she had me rather than an abortion. Sometimes I think my mother made the wrong choice. It’s not always a blessing to be born.

I can’t speak of coarse on your situation, but its sounds like your sister had other issues by sides just you being born.

It’s not my sister that had issues, but my mother, but let’s leave it at that. Heh.

I’m all for government funding for adoption. While there’s an adoption tax credit, it doesn’t come near the costs typically involved.

-There is no clear, defensible point or marker when an embryo becomes a human being with rights. But, OTOH, i think, intuitively, a blastocyst or collection of some thousand cells is not a human being.
-Many contraceptives, which could prevent abortions, are being fingered as interfering with implantation and not fertilization, even though it’s clear fertilization occurs many, many times naturally without causing pregnancy.
-Reproduction clinics and techniques require the creation and destruction of embryos on a scale more vast than any woman having an abortion; by a factor of many, i would imagine.

-Abortion will never go away, it will go underground and go illegal or over the border. We now know collectively that abortion exists, and nothing that can be legislated will change that. What they can change, otoh, is how accessible and safe abortion is for women.
-Abortion is quite often proxy and/or part and parcel for a culture war. Note cases where some have refused to sell contraceptives; a number sure to skyrocket if abortion is overturned. Abortion is bad eg. because unmarried women are irresponsible having sex eg. having sex unmarried is bad eg. providing contraceptives to have unmarried sex is bad.

-Outlawing abortion means making abortion and activities that could cause abortion illegal. This could have a pretty wide scope as to legislating not only prenatal care but behavior. And considering the fatalistic 3 strikes laws that are so popular, accidental abortions/miscarriages will be prosecuted, make no mistake.
-The idea that conservatives will pass laws outlawing abortion and then making all powerful, expensive, new government agencies on behalf of women to care for the “abortion babies now up for adoption” is fanciful is not blatantly dishonest.

-America has the worst 1st world conditions (laws, ect) for helping pregnant women in and out of the workplace (time off, time in hospital, guarantees to keep job, ect). (i might be wrong here in an absolute sense, though) Also hasn’t many proactive feminist laws, the lowest female representation politically, ect. And is the most religious.
-Although the bible seems clear to believers in the US, there is some debate as to whether the bible actually says that God or a prophet says that a person is “born” at conception or at birth. The bible apparently makes no mention of miscarriages at all, and Judaic law does not recognize miscarriages as being the loss of a human being, insofar as i’ve looked.
-There is a lot of transference anger being expressed in the abortion debate by pro-life groups.
-I don’t see any laws being put forward to require men to sponsor, raise, or support their biological children, if they are not adopted. Women may have to be responsible for their behavior (although everyone saying this, or at least half, had a pretty good time in college, i’m sure), but it takes two to tango.