Yeah I’m not into being an apologist for Dump… there are way more constructive battles to fight don’t you think.

Of course, Trumps intention is obviously to pick American winners. The basis being that US society is healthier with productive work, even if materially worse off.

It’s a simple argument, and it is quite obvious and uncontroversial that anationalistic growth oriented economics has a fundamentally different precept for assessment of wealth.

In the long term, there has been a net export of industry, which is unsurprising for historically mercantilist economies.

From a geopolitical perspective, it is hard to think how an industrialised nation can maintain its power and dominance over an extended period of history, after the deliberate exportation of it’s heavy industry.

In the context of the domestic political debate, the left and right are now seemingly in a state of flux. This is why we see the absurdity of the left relentlessly attacking a protectionist, and the confusion produced by the paradox of ‘identity’ politics.

There seems to be a real sense of loss as to how to respond, so the focus becomes on grandiose and simple issues such as the wall, or unlikely and far fetched scenarios such as a nuclear war with China over the south sea.

How can the left develop a consistent policy to protecting labour, when it turns a blind eye to the continual importation of an unprotected, economic underclass of ‘illegals’ that prop up the wealth of the upper class?

How can the left present itself as the socially progressive party, when it has no useful policy towards the vacuum following the collapse of deprotected industry?

The simple answer is that the left and right have no intention of responding to this, they accept it as the natural order. This has given rise to the mild populism of Trump, which may be fairly characterized as proto fascist, which means essentially that he is a nationalist.

The lefts current plan seems to be continue with the internal dialogue of tweets that rendered them unelectable, and outright hostility to the suggestion that perhaps this is not such a productive path.

The reason fascism took off in Germany and Italy was that it was that it held greater political credibility with the populace. This was in the context of an active and determined communist movement, who really did have a plan.

It is difficult to evaluate where the politically correct ‘identity’ politics of the left stand today, in historical terms. It has more in common with social movements like hippies, who had no political credibility. There is no effective left wing opposition from this movement, in fact it undermines left credibility, which is obvious with Corby in the UK.

Every time these people rant on about Trump being a misogynist, a racist, a fascist, a Russian agent, the harbinger of nuclear apocalypse, or whatever the next ludicrous accusation is to be… they kick a goal for Trump, as they discredit themselves in the eyes of people who might actually change their vote.

More insidiously, they mire the debate and greatly hinder the process of the left responding to this new state of affairs.

In part, this is to be somewhat expected in this stage of the political cycle. It’s a new term and nothing can be done except whinge and complain. But even at the highest level, the failures are attributed to Trump, or even more pointlessly, to the voters.

Good luck, I guess…

So it’s better to let him be those things, and pretend he’s not.

Look, if we just gave him a chance…

Never mind he is basically all those things, just give him a chance to do something horrific before you say anything.

It’s better to provide an effective opposition.

He may even manage to generate investment in those depressed states that voted strongly for him. If he does that you may as well carry on, as they will basically give him a license to grab crotches as he sees fit. Maybe you guys won’t care as much either.

The issue you guys face, which I don’t think you understand, is that since the medias become such a cutthroat market, they have to tell you what you want to hear to generate clicks.

You have to gain ground with the people who voted for Trump, amongst whom the language of political correctness has suffered an irreversible loss of credibility.

Once upon a time media corporations may have ordered a shift to regain some of that ground, and maintain or increase their political potency. Now they literally cannot afford it as they have lost their ability to set the agenda.

Trump defaults to the right with his rhetoric on immigration and policy on health, and the left can’t gain any traction on nation building policies (however they approach it) as they just won’t stop talking about his character flaws.

Just how far up his own ass is this guy?

I think what he’s saying is the Left needs to espouse their own attractive policy instead of relying on name calling. He’s right that no coherent policy platform has materialized to oppose Trump. I think the rest of us are saying that while that is true, we also think pointing out his character flaws expressed through sexism, racism, etc… also will give him the rope he needs to hang himself. So far, to @BadSport’s credit, that approach has been a complete failure. Better to focus energy on building a legit political platform because it’s more likely to bring him down.

To pull that conclusion from what I wrote… I question your reading comprehension. Lets face it, you didn’t read it at all. Or don’t read past 140 char? It’s a ridiculous conclusion.

[quote=“Tim_N, post:4665, topic:78530, full:true”]
I was originally responding to a post that said this will lead to a 20% increase in the “COST TO YOU”, which isn’t true. I’m not disputing it’s a 20% tax on mexican imports, which is the definition of a tariff.[/quote]

And if you read the context of my original post, you’ll see that nobody is arguing that the tariff is an exact to the penny 20% increase in the cost to consumers. The argument being made was that the media is calling it a “tariff” or an “import tax”, which makes it sound to the American public like the burden is on the supposed Mexican producers of the goods involved. The reality is that the cost WILL be passed on to consumers, not penny for penny, but at a rate high enough to notice, and thus the media should be representing Trump’s tariff as a direct increase in the COST TO YOU.

This is something Fiscal Conservatives used to foam at the mouth over any time it was proposed, and now suddenly Republicans are all for it, and not even to do something fiscally responsible like reduce the deficit, but to build a fucking monument to stupidity, isolationism and racism that will be a national embarrassment for decades to come. Why? Because the demagogue that less than 30% of the country actually supports thinks it’s a fantastic idea, and his party is too spineless to do anything that might be perceived as admitting they have a problem.

Meanwhile we (and so much of the rest of the country, including the media) sit here and argue semantics over the precise meanings and details of what is happening with this and everything else coming from the administration the past week, when what we should be doing is screaming from every rooftop that it’s a subversion of our political system and is wrong in every conceivable way.

I apologize, as I don’t mean it to seem like I’m picking on you in particular @Tim_N. As you say we are in agreement on Trump and the current administration’s tactics on this and many other issues. And you’re also correct when you say facts matter. But this country has a perception problem right now. Far too many people don’t read past a headline or bother to separate detailed facts from generalizations, so if we’re going to avoid disaster, we need to get the message across in a way most of America will understand in 140 characters or less, and in this case the way to do that is to drive home the point that this Wall Tariff is a direct tax on the American consumer, even if the actual details are more complex.

He has like a 30% approval. At one week in. We don’t have to do anything other than keep him from destroying the republic.

And not run another Clinton.

You can’t reach most of the people that are still in his camp and you never will.

My real argument (and to whatever remaining extent I am political, which aint much anymore, my concern) is that not only is it not working, its working in Trumps and the rights favour generally.

Hell, it got him elected.

I think there are a lot of frustrated left leaning voters out there, in lots of western democracies, watching this and feeling utterly powerless. Leftwing used to be about corrupt labour unions or chardonnay and social welfare for those poor people (but not in our neighbourhoods thankyou).

Now it’s suddenly about ‘white men’, ‘elites’ and somehow being ‘scared’ got brought into it. It’s not even a youth subculture, all the mainstream newspapers have fully adopted the language, in all opinion. I mean, to borrow a phrase, ‘what the goddamn fucking hell are you shitheads talking about’?

It’s crazy talk, and I think in the long term it dooms the left to irrelevance. How else could any rational person explain Trump winning a general election? Clinton used this language, the whole deplorables thing was a result of that.

An election loss usually brings a period of introspection and reassessment, there’s no sign of that. It has ramifications for the other democracies, as like it or lump it we still take many of our social cues from the US. Hell the local left rag flat out reprints WaPo and NYT articles.

I think part of the reason there’s no sign of that is because it’s less that the left has changed, though it has (in part because Obama is a technocrat and elements of the left turned his victories into identity politics), and more because Fox News and the right wing media have changed the conversation – he’ll, they’ve changed the game. The left are playing ping pong and the right are playing rugby. Does that mean the left has to play rugby or point out to the right that it’s the wrong game? Who knows. Nothing is working against Trump except to get under HIS skin, in particular.

Oh shit, the polls again.

If I remember correctly you had a rather large, nationwide poll recently, who won that one again?

You’ll have to reach those voters. What a hubris it is to imagine you don’t.

The Republican establishment just received the shock of their lives, and you can count on them being much more malleable than the Democrats. They won’t risk another Trump as long as it appears at all likely.

@BadSport makes a good point.

Look, we’re never going to swing 15% or so of the country away from supporting Trump and his garbage. They’re either too racist, too xenophobic, too ignorant, too stuck in fantasies of “how life used to be” or some combination of all of those to ever perceive reality as anything other than what Brietbart and Fox News tell them it is. But those people were only a portion of the voters who elected Trump.

The other, larger portion were straight up Conservatives who have serious reservations about some aspects of Trump, but voted for him anyway because “reasons”. Could be they couldn’t stomach Hillary, could be they couldn’t live with the idea of a liberal leaning SCOTUS, could be they voted single issue, whatever. The point is that those people can be “turned”. Probably not to a liberal ideology or a Democratic candidate, but certainly away from supporting Trump. But the way to turn then isn’t to keep hammering at Trump on his misogyny, racism, ignorance, lying or tiny hands, that just plays back into the strengths of his campaign victories. Those things are awful yes, and should never be ignored, but there are plenty of liberal media outlets to keep up a steady stream of outrage for the middle and the left.

To turn the right against Trump you need to appeal to the things that matter to the right. Hammer on Trump for taking away Middle America’s insurance. Hammer on Trump for his Wall tariff bring a direct tax on American consumers. Hammer on Trump for appointing Wall Street crooks to political positions after promising to drain the swamp. Hammer on Trump for not living up to the promise of creating good paying jobs for Middle America. Hammer on Trump for his administration doing all the same things he railed against Clinton doing in the campaign.

You show the other 15% of the country that voted for him that Trump is a phony, and they will abandon him. They probably won’t vote for any Democrats anytime soon, but they will start demanding their own party do something, and if Republicans see the tide of public opinion has turned against Trump, it will be the Ides of March in a hot minute.

Thing is… people have been and they’ve been ignored.

Now that they’re finally seeing what’s happening they’re turning. Telling them facts is pointless, people have been doing it for almost 2 years now and they don’t care by now, they’re never going to.

Yeah polls weren’t accurate, but Clinton only led by like 3-4%. Her platform was fine, the problem was that Hillary Clinton was the one out there and people couldn’t vote for her.

Sure, stop pandering to the extremes of the social justice faction, but really… most people weren’t anyway.

That last 25% (it’s more than 15% imo) isn’t going to change. Ever. You could literally nominate Stalin and they’d vote for him because he has an R next to his name.

And making fun of Trump seems to be working. The White House is leaking like a sieve because he’s losing his grip. We need to push him to the breaking point so Pence and Company can drop the 25th on him and end this before something happens. They’re already discussing it according to the leakers and everyone fucking hates him. If he can’t handle daily business we’re well and truly fucked when the first real crisis lands on his desk.

Edit: What I’m seeing is people basically saying to bring the Dems to the Right. Which is actually how we ended up here. Bill Clinton cozied up to the big banks and turned a lot of people off to the party. Hell, the party is basically the Republican party from the 80-90’s. The only thing that gained traction with people was Sanders, who wants to go back to the 60-70’s. He already got the platform changed and people liked the message, more than Trump’s iirc.

See, that would be a consistent political response.

I think one of the turning points from this election is its not necessarily any longer political acceptable for industry to collapse and never be replaced in the intervening decades.

By voting for Trump, those people said to the political elite, ‘we will vote for anyone who addresses our concerns’. They’re not all permanently rusted on voters to any party, and they’re the ones who turned out for Trump.

There is a question as to how the major parties intend to respond politically to the long term consequences of liberalisation.

This would be a politically taboo question even a couple of years ago, even raising it now is attributed to economic illiteracy. But there’s a President sitting in the White House openly talking about protectionism. It is a genuine shift in the popular political debate, and to think Trump was elected because of his sexism rather than in spite of it, is to be politically blind.

Trump has laid out the roadmap for what the left needs to respond to. They need to put together a package and campaign on it, and they need a media which can actually communicate it to potential voters, instead of patronising them as idiots. That media is currently entirely absent.

Putting America’s interests first does not equate to being racist. Pointing to radical racist groups who are supportive of Trump (big surprise that they didn’t support a black president) does not mean that Trump or his cabinet are racists. I have seen liberals who equate wanting to build a wall on the border as being racist. To the vast majority of Trump supporters, this is a legal issue – not a racial one. People who get upset at Trump’s words (i.e. calling illegal immigrants criminals) are focusing too much on a stupid comment from a man who we know says all kinds of unusual things. As petulant as Trump is, sometimes I wonder if he’s not some kind of genius at social media because time and time again he wins. In fact, I’m getting tired of him winning.

Trump is not doing anything to take away rights from gay people. He’s not doing anything to keep women from being in the military (as confirmed by Secretary Mattis). He is taking prudent and practical measures to keep people from coming to America who want to kill Americans. This is not racist. It’s not personal, but no one has the right to enter any sovereign nation for any reason and the safety and well being of the citizens of that nation should take priority. If those people take it personally then that is there problem. It’s not racist.

The government is too big and I pay too much in taxes. The world has taken advantage of American generosity and, in many cases, actively work against us even when receiving our aid. We are too involved in worldly affairs (which most liberals agree with), so let’s back out and let other countries deal with their own problems unless it is directly in our dire national interest to be involved.

Liberals keep saying that Trump is a dictator and a fascist. Where is the proof for that? I promise you that the three branches of government are still in place and even Trump supporters would recoil if he actually did anything akin to being an actual despot. He assembled a terrific cabinet and, surprising most of you, is showing signs that he will listen and even defer to their expert opinions. This is what a wise person does. So for all his bluster, he’s showing himself to not be a complete jackass.

I’ll stop, but before you lose your cookies and direct your ire at the messenger, understand that when your words continue to try to paint Trump as racist or racist – most of us laugh. We’re not buying what you’re selling. The only terrible character flaw I would say is evident is his treating women with less than respect by objectifying them – but you don’t have to look very far in the past to see other Presidents who are inappropriately the same exact way…in the White House…with cigars…with young pages… So, be outraged about that, but there is a general yawn among Trump supporters. Don’t get me wrong – that is terrible – but it is not and has not been a requirement to not be a womanizer to be in the Oval Office.

Liberal hubris and media dishonesty has done much to get Trump where he is. You guys need to rethink and regroup because Trump has decimated both parties.

Enjoy $5+ trillion more on the deficit that he has no plans to pay for. Odds are your taxes are also going up as well. Oh and everything will cost more after the trade wars start.

So are conservatives.

And his Cabinet is literally just people who gave him money or kissed his ass sans Mattis, who is the only one in the bunch qualified to be there.

Seriously, listen to conservatives. They’re saying the same things.

Edit: And denying people entry based on their religion is so anti-American that I can’t even find the words for it. That you think that is fine says it all really. Reagan would punch Trump in the face if he was still alive. Trump is the anti-Reagan.

The Constitution forbids discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or religion. Period. End of story. His executive orders are directly violating that. Also, not sure if you’re aware, but doing this sort of thing is pretty much the textbook definition of being racist. Not sure how you’re “not buying what we’re selling”. We aren’t selling anything. It’s plain as day for anyone to see. If he had feathers and laid eggs would you not see that he’s a chicken?

[quote=“ShivaX, post:4683, topic:78530”]
And denying people entry based on their religion
[/quote]And how you’ve over-simplified it, I would agree with you entirely. However, if you actually read the entire statement you understand the real intent and if it is racist or not. The details matter.

This is not as plain as day to everyone. The fact that many very nice, educated people disagree with you should give you a clue that everyone does not see it the same way unless you are someone who believes all Trump supporters are evil racists. Who does the United States Constitution serve?