Not to mention that building a giant expensive wall is a terrible way to stop illegal immigration. If the border were 100’ long, then it might be effective. Look around the world and through history at examples of this. It just doesn’t work.

It’s not just a wall. It’s surveillance and more boots on the ground. Again, details matter.

You’re aware that we already have that, right? Want more surveillance and patrol officers, then do that. It would be vastly cheaper and more effective than a wall.

I have no problem questioning how effective Trump’s plan might be. Even if it’s completely ineffective, it’s not racist. It’s a legal issue.

Does anyone else want to point out the obvious to ShivaX?

Yeah, I must have misunderstood when he literally said we’re going to help Christians and not Muslims. Silly me.

Luckily I can count myself among nearly every conservative in the nation. And liberal. And libertarian. And Christian. And Jew. And Muslim. Cause they’re all on the same page here.

I’m sure we all got it wrong, if only we could read it correctly.

Go fuck yourself you snide piece of shit. I’m done with you and your bullshit.

You’re right about Clinton, and Obama had already campaigned on idealism which makes it tough, but you underestimate how turned off people have become by the political correctness.

Trump was gone in the polls. He was shot, yet he still won it. Was does that tell you? People were lying to the pollsters. Why would anyone bother? They didn’t want to be judged over it, even by a stranger over the phone, and they’re sick of being shamed. So they fudged their answers. Then voted for him anyway. Outside of the alt-right, there are a bunch of people who are just sick of this way of communicating. It’s not a sole cause, for an election loss, but there never is a sole cause.

You don’t see it, even your language. You aren’t communicating with people, you’re telling them facts. Of course they don’t want to listen. This is politics, there are no facts. Facts have never mattered in politics and never will. Even in the hard sciences there are few facts and many logical assumptions, let alone human affairs. Perhaps this is what Conway alluded to inadvertently.

This ‘post-truth’ is just another example of trite garbage. If I voted for Trump and I hear that garbage, what am I supposed to think? The behaviour of the followers is always associated with the leader and vice versa. There is a genuine lack of acceptance that the election was lost fair and square, as far as these things usually are. I haven’t seen anything like it.

You say 25%, shit I’d say at least 60% are rusted on. It doesn’t matter. Elections are fought over the swinging or non voters. There would probably be a similar percentage of Dems who’d vote for the Ayatollah. So what.

You make logical leaps. How exactly are you seeing people saying bring the Dems to the right? As far as I can see, no ones said that anywhere.

You still don’t seem to appreciate that Trumps election policies were of a mixed left and right character. In this day and age, advocating protectionism openly (as opposed to quietly maintaining it) is so far left wing it hasn’t been in the mainstream debate for decades. I think I’ve said this before, and surely am not the only one.

Making fun of Trump isn’t ‘working’, it’s just keeping you occupied. It’s like denial, thinking he’ll be impeached or somehow discharged. He’s the President. You’ve got 4 years of him. In comparison to a half senile Reagan heating up the cold war, or a loose as a goose Khrushchev presiding over the Cuban missile crisis, what threat is a lazy Trump relying on his aides? It’s nothing.

It is uncomfortable sometimes when there are differing opinions.

Ultimately people don’t really care, they care about their bottom line. The Democrats left them behind and ignored them. The Republicans ply them with social crap, while also ignoring them.

Sure, the Democrats need to return to those people, which is basically what Sanders and his wing are about.

Trump isn’t liberal or conservative, he’s authoritarian. He still doesn’t know what’s in the Constitution, nor does he care. He literally thinks he was elected dictator.

Your point seems to be “ignore everything he says and does and let him do it and then hope you win next time.” Sorry, I’m not going to just give up the republic because one man barely got elected. Fortunately opposition is pretty bi-partisan.

As far as it working? The leaks seem to say otherwise. Remember, you’re talking about a man-child who wants everyone to love him.

What would you suggest as a solution? Because you seem to be saying, as Timex alluded to earlier, that we just give up and sit around doing nothing while he wipes his ass with the Constitution.

But this isn’t remotely what he’s doing.
Hell, in many cases, the xenophobia he’s stoking is manifesting in isolationist trade policies which will harm the US economically.

No. His racism, and his intentionally courting racists, is what makes him racist.

To be clear, I’d generally categorize him more as a xenophobe than a racist… but they’re pretty much the same thing. It’s essentially just some attempt to scapegoat some group of “others”.

Building a wall is STUPID… and the fact that the stupidity is overlooked, is largely based on racism/xenophobia. Their fear of immigrants blinds them to how absurdly bad and wasteful an idea it is. Just like it blinded them to how flat out retarded the idea “Mexico will pay for it!” was.

“umusual” is an overly nice way of categorizing what I would describe as overtly idiotic things. He’s an idiot. He says stupid things, without considering the repercussions, because throughout his life he has never had to deal with any negative repercussions from anything.

And this has made him into an utterly immoral man. Hell, he doesn’t even grasp the most fundamental aspects of normal human lives. Remember when asked what sacrifices he’s made throughout his life, and he cited his successes in business? And when given a chance to clarify, he repeated it? The man has lived such an utterly priveleged life, in every way, that he literally does not even grasp the concept of sacrifice.

How is his action prudent and practical? No syrian refugees have committed any acts of terror in the US… and yet you will abandon them. You are turned into a coward, out of fear of a phantom, and allow that cowardice to force you to abandon your morals.

This is what separated a leader like Reagan from a monster like Trump. Reagan believed not that we should turn inward and only care about Americans. Reagan believed that, as Americans, it was our duty to be a force for good in this world. The fact that you have lost your way to the extent that you’ve forgotten such things, is disgraceful.

What’s even more absurd, is that while banning immigration from some countries under this nonsensical security theater, he doesn’t ban it from countries his company does business with… like Saudi Arabia, which actually produced all of the most successful terrorists in our nation’s history. But they’re fine! That’s quite a definition of “prudent” you have there.

But you support Trump slapping a huge tax on you, and using it for a huge useless government program that will cost billions.[quote=“RoyalWe, post:4682, topic:78530”]
The world has taken advantage of American generosity and, in many cases, actively work against us even when receiving our aid. We are too involved in worldly affairs (which most liberals agree with), so let’s back out and let other countries deal with their own problems unless it is directly in our dire national interest to be involved.
[/quote]

Again, you’ve lost your way. You’ve been cowed by fear, stoked by people like Trump, such that now you’ve abandoned all of your principles. You’re left with nothing but fear.

If you had stood by conservative principles, you’d remember the futility of the path you’ve now been led down. How economic isolationism won’t actually improve your economy, it’ll harm it. How America is a force for good, not a selfish bunch of cowards. Or at least, we used to be.

If you believe yourself to be a conservative, then go watch speeches from a real leader, like Reagan, and refresh yourself on what it means. Go watch his farewell address.[quote=“RoyalWe, post:4682, topic:78530”]
Liberals keep saying that Trump is a dictator and a fascist. Where is the proof for that?
[/quote]

His constant attempts to tell boldfaced lies to the American people, and then castigate the media when they simply point out the lies. The fact that he’s actually gone so far as to straight up declare that the press itself is the opposition party. The fact that he is dividing people up based on their religion.

And this is day FIVE dude.

Since this shit has happened before, we have a responsibility to recognize it.[quote=“RoyalWe, post:4682, topic:78530”]
He assembled a terrific cabinet and, surprising most of you, is showing signs that he will listen and even defer to their expert opinions.
[/quote]

Dude, no he hasn’t.
He’s got Mattis, who is probably the one hope we have, until he resigns… Because unlike Trump, Mattis has a genuine love of this country. He will always put its welfare before his own. He is the anti-Trump in this way.

But he won’t be able to stop Trump’s other disasterous policies.

What other awesome trump cabinet members are their? All the goldman sachs guys? Tillerson, who refused to acknowledge Russia’s war crimes, and is in bed with Russia? Flynn, who is hilariously idiotic, and is ALSO totally in bed with Russia? DeVos, who lacks any credentials at all in terms of educational experience, and is nominated ENTIRELY due to the fact that she has donated hundreds of millions of dollars?

I mean, where’s this awesome cabinet? Trump certainly TOLD you it’s awesome. That’s the line… but these folks, with the exception of Mattis, are not awesome.

You need to work out a way to communicate with people you disagree with without treating them like idiots or outright abusing them.

RoyalWe come into this thread knowing he’d cop a bunch of shit from strangers, simply to explain to you how much it’s backfiring, ie. the behaviour of the media.

Presumably he did it in the interest of a robust democracy, as it can’t be pleasant.

You may not agree with his politics, but you can’t say they are not reasoned. He is probably typical of many Trump voters. Some of the ones who are swinging probably share his concerns, but I’d wager the overwhelming majority share his or her sentiment that they’re not buying into the shaming.

In point of fact, they find it stupid, and it’s a correct assessment in my view. It means nothing to them if they’re rusted on, and if they may vote otherwise, they’re immediately alienated by accusations of racism and sexism blah blah blah.

If it was just in alternative settings, it wouldn’t matter, but it is everywhere. It’s infested your media. There’s no route left to get a political message to any of these people. If the next Dem candidate adopts the conventions of political correctness, they’re stuffed.

I absolutely can. I did.

Support for Trump makes no sense from a conservative perspective. He is directly at odds with conservative principles.

As a poll, Clinton. You continually forget that.

Trump is the most unpopular newly elected president since polling began. He’s starting in the cellar.

Do the Dems need to pull away some voters who voted Trump in November? Absolutely. But you’re acting as he’s arriving in a wave of mass public adulation, which he’s not.

@Timex, you disagreed with his reasons. This is different to saying his views are unreasoned. You guys are young, right? You must be. All you really did was dump a bucket of verbiage on him.

@HumanTon, yeah, she won the poll, but lost the election. A victory so Pyrrhic, it is beyond me why anyone brings it up. It’s a representative democracy, and has been for many years.

As for your last point, it’s hardly worth addressing as it’s not something I’ve ever stated or even implied.

No, I pointed out how they made no sense.

Complaining about paying too much in taxes… but then supporting huge trade tarriffs which are effectively a huge tax on you, is no rational. The justification for this being so you can spend billions of a giant government project which is essentially guaranteed to fail, is also not rational.

Saying that Trump’s ban on immigation from some muslim countries, while still allowing it from others, including ones like Saudi Arabia where tons of radical islamic terrorism (including all of the actual 9/11 hijackers) comes from, is not rational.

Presuming that RoyalWe was at some point a conservatism, then as a conservative, I feel the need to point out that Trump’s positions are in direct odds with what would have been considered conservative only a year or so ago… Now, maybe it’s possible that he’s actually some sort of populist authoritarian guy, in which case I guess Trump really is a great manifestation of his ideology, but I suspect RoyalWe considers himself a conservative… and just doesn’t recognize how he’s abandoned everything he used to believe in.

I think someone spiked my kool-aid.

and the #MuslimBan hashtag of support completely fails to highlight its not a Muslim ban at all, it’s a country ban.

Christians, Yazidi, Chaldeans, Copts, Jews, Maronites, Zoroastrians, Mandaeians, Assyrians… all banned too.

You know if you wanted a hashtag to prove its racism not anti-terrorism, ignoring the persecuted minorities from Muslim majority countries isn’t the way to go about it.

It’s not really either. It’s just a stupid policy failure, designed to cater to xenophobes, while not really doing anything, since it totally ignores countries like Saudi Arabia.

It’s kind of like the Security Theater we engage in at airports, taken to the scale of foreign policy.

Has anyone in this idiotic cabinet “explained” the choices of countries on the no-enter-the-US list, even stupidly? And why, say, Saudi Arabia is not on the list? Have they even tried?