Yes, means testing is dumb for that reason alone. Just tax the rich bastards to make up for it.
Timex
4332
The GOP never makes this argument though, to the broader public in their base. Saying āweā pay for stuff we canāt use tends to not really work as a message when āweā is only a small percentage of your own voters.
They do, actually. Itās the entire basis of the smaller government argument: that āweā (the good people) have taxes that are too high because of all free stuff ātheyā (the bad people) get from the government.
Rock8man
4334
They know that their voters think of themselves as one day being part of the upper income elite, even though itās probably not true. They are very successful at this. Iāve had arguments with many Republicans that say āweā to mean the upper 1% of income earners, even though the odds that they will ever get there is laughable.
Papageno
4335
Most Americans have no clue as to how incredibly huge the income gap is in the US, not to mention the truly obscene wealth gap. Half of our problems stem from public policy geared toward preserving those gaps and making them even greater.
Means testing benefits is the absolute dumbest thing. Non-starter for me, to be honest. Find something else to compromise on.
Timex
4337
Compromising on a thing that will have zero impact on the thing, and is basically just placating the other party, is exactly the thing you want to compromise on.
Saying super rich people canāt get free community college isnāt going to change anything in any real sense.
You are going to have to compromise on something. If itās not this, then itāll likely be something else that actually will reduce the effectiveness of the programs you want to implement.
Yes, if it buys the votes of Manchin and Sinema, do the stupid thing. But I doubt that it does, really.
My general rant against means testing:
- It introduces additional bureaucracy and govāt inefficiency (isnāt this something the herpaderps are nominally against?)
- It disproportionately reduces engagement with the benefit among disadvantaged populations (immigrants, low-education, govāt-mistrustful)
- It gives the herpaderps something to rail against and continually feed their othering of anyone who takes a benefit
- Itās fucking pointless. How much does the govāt āsaveā by means-testing fucking anything? Basically nothing, I contend, because people & families who test out of it are a tiny fraction of the payout of the benefit. Just give it to everyone.
Let the law in its majestic equality provide food stamps* to the rich and poor alike.
* Food stamps are a dumb example but itās pithy. Food stamps are also fucking stupid, and should be replaced with a cash benefit.
LOL, Jen Psaki compared working in Washington to a TV show, saying itās āmaybe the West Wing if something good happens, maybe Veep if not.ā
Timex
4341
An ideological opposition to means testing is a bad hill to die on.
I understand the opposition to itā¦ but itās not worth caring about at this point.
If you are able to get free community college for everyone who wants it, and all you have to do is agree to means testing, then you should fucking take that deal.
The reason I am ideologically opposed to means testing and similar nonsense is that itās bad government, and the death cult is constantly trying to sell a narrative that government is bad.
If the non-death-cult coalition wants to actually lead, lead by creating good programs that do good for real people. Thatās the goal. Herd the cats behind that first and foremost.
Weāre still in a fucking 50-50 fight against the goddamn Trump fascismo because everyone got so fucking scared of 1980 and Carter being a good person trying to do good who got crushed by a fucking haircut that the entire American āleftā still thinks that negotiating with terrorists and selling out the people for special interests to get āthe win you canā is the only path forward. Worked awesome in the '90s, look at all the people we kicked off welfare by hiding benefits behind a fucking labyrinth of means-testing! Really fucking glad the Clinton wing of the party signed the Contract With America, just a fantastic job there.
Win today to have the same dumbass bad-faith fight tomorrow? Fuck that. Compromise on something else.
Means testing just means Pell Grant. Just increase the grant and call it a day.
Alstein
4344
I suspect Sinemaās vote was paid for by her summer internship this summer at a winery, and campaign checks.
Correct. We already have a way to means test government financing of higher education. I think means testing is super dumb for community colleges, but whatever. I do know for sure that there will be people who canāt get though the arcane paperwork to qualify, but Iām sure thatās a net positive for the moderates.
Timex
4346
You only say this with the idea that āsomething elseā is in fact not a real thing. Youāre imagining that thereās some thing in there that you donāt care about.
No, you compromise on this, because the practical result is that it will still help everyone you want to help. That is better than compromising on something where the compromise will result in a measurable difference in aid to the people you seek to assist.
But it wonāt. Part of the problem with means testing is that it has the effect of stopping even people who would qualify. Thatās (part of) why they always ask for means-testing on these things.
The idea that if you stole the Trillion Dollar Coin that youād never be able to sell it without being caught is just silly. Black markets exist, and throughout history priceless unique artworks and other items have been stolen and/or counterfeited and then sold to rich collectors via black markets. So in theory you could put together a team of people that included an expert jeweler to forge a counterfeit coin from palladium, experts in security systems and network hacking to infiltrate the mintās surveillance and alarm systems, and a master thief posing as a janitor or security guard at the mint, swap out the real coin for your fake in itās vault, and walk away without anyone knowing the Trillion Dollar Coin is now a fake. Sell to wealthy collector on black market and roll credits.
There, I just scripted the Nicolas Cage movie. In the sequel, the wealthy collector turns out to be an arms dealer and decides to have the team killed to cover his tracks, so the team has to reunite, add a couple of new members with specific talents, and infiltrate the arms dealerās operation, taking him down from the inside and turning him over to the FBI while also walking away with the coin and millions in other artifacts that nobody even knows were stolen from the collection.
EDIT - And I just thought of the title of the first movieā¦Coin Flip.
Strollen
4349
Thatās not even remotely true. Plenty of rich people have kids who donāt want to go to college, and in many cases probably shouldnāt go. Then their parents give them an ultimatum, leave, get a real job, or go to college. So they go to community college as basically a gap year.
The problem with making anything free is people donāt to value it. Social science has proven this numerous times. Community colleges, like health care, should be affordable to everyone, but necessarily free.
And then since itās Nicolas Cage the third movie will have the IRS seize his assets for not reporting the goods as assets or income or whatever and he will have to do a string of endless bad movies to pay his tax bill.
