5038

I believe that Sinema and Manchin support BBB, as long as they can strip out anything that offends corporate overlords and coal magnates, respectively. But then you’re not left with much.

5039

This is like a game, in which you pretend not to understand that if the House Dems pass the infrastructure bill without any firm agreement / promise on the BBB bill from Manchin and Sinema, the BBB bill dies in the Senate. Because I think you do actually understand that.

5040

Timex wants no BBB bill. That’s pretty clear.

5041

I bet he does.

I just want an infrastructure bill, way more than the BBB bill. I think it is harmful for the country, and the party to delay it.

I think the BBB will be good for the country, but I’m not convinced in the intermediate-term it is good politics. The only thing in BBB, that couldn’t wait until actually have 50 real Democratic senators is the climate change stuff.

5042

I don’t find it scary. I can take it!

This is just wrong, though. The BBB extends the larger child tax credit for another year, and it makes the child tax credit permanently fully refundable. Those things are huge in real human terms, and for the upcoming election.

5043

I was more naive/hopeful at the beginning of the week than I am now. At this point, I have zero faith in Manchin or Sinema, and at this point, I wonder why any of the Progs would either. I can’t blame them for pushing to see the text or wanting to wait to pass both bills simultaneously, I just wonder why they still think BBB will even pass now.

I guess I’m just feeling cynical, knowing all the shit that’s been cut out, but why would anyone expect a vote from either of the two Conservative Dems at this point? And so now I’m left to wondering, will anything get passed at all? Will the ConDems just pull out and say, “Fuck it”? Will that cause the Progs to spike the BIF altogether?

5044

I think if the BIF makes it to a vote (for whatever reason - maybe BBB is dead because of Manchinena, maybe Pelosi just calls the Progressives’ bluff), the Progressives will vote for it.

5045

This is totally false.

I do in fact want them to pass an additional reconciliation bill… but I want them to get stuff done ASAP, and since the infrastructure bill is already ready to go, I want that passed so that it’s done.

The idea that you need to force Sinema and Manchin to do stuff is just wrong headed to me… I don’t think you can actually do that. You don’t really have any REAL leverage… your leverage is based on you shooting yourself in the head.

Just pass the infrastructure bill, and then pass the reconciliation bill based on getting Manchin and Sinema honestly on board, not through some attempt to threaten them into voting for it.

5047

They’ve expected this out of Sinema- which is why they are doing trust but verify and making sure they get their cut before voting on anything.

They will vote for it if the Senate holds up is bargain, they have no reason not to. I don’t know where this conspiracy theory that they’d sink infrastructure once they got BBB came from on here.

The only way you get a recon bill is to hold Manchin and Sinema hostage, they won’t support anything more than a debt limit increase as small as possible otherwise. Those two are only Dems for the purpose of Schumer over McConnell , that’s it.

I do think if the ConservaDems say fuck it, the Progressives will spike the whole thing to prove a point. They feel like if they don’t, they’ll never be listened to again, and if that’s the case, time for accelerationism pressure. This is why they’re staying solid for once.

5048

Sounds like Game Theory.

5049

That’s my concern and that’s a pretty shitty thing to do to prove a point, IMO. I mean, we’re not talking about scuttling a deal that would provide a boon to ONLY West Virginia, it’s something that benefits the entire country. I understand the methods and the reasoning behind the Progs actions, but they’re holding up (and threatening to potentially kill) an impressive package that’s ready to go.

5050

It’s like an update Murc’s law. Only progressive democrats have agency. Manchin and Sinema are just forces of nature with no agency and thus cannot be blamed for their actions, thus, progressives’ fault.

5051

Personally, I blame these two for gutting what was a hugely important piece of legislation. I’m not giving them a pass on anything.

5052

It’s actually more like The American Dilemma where when anyone with Conservative values stonewalls it’s because they’re Serious and when progressives stonewall it’s because they’re delusional and out of touch. There’s a real reluctance to paint progressives in a positive light and much of the country seems unwilling to back them even if many support them because of this framing.

5053

It’s also completely and utterly insane that all reporting on the package and negotiations is how the Dems are unable to come to an agreement that 50 Senators all like and not that there’s an entire party who refuse to engage with the process because the Other Guys are involved. Like the media takes it for granted that Republicans have no interest in governing and therefore it isn’t worth reporting on anymore.

5054

It’s not. It’s why we’re not discussing “Why won’t such and such GOP senators get on board?” in this thread. The GOP isn’t going to give a Democratic president a win, even if it’s good for the country. Not under McConnell.

5055

For the purposes of this thread and discussion on QT3, sure, I get not bringing it up. I disagree that media should ignore it - in fact, they should be constantly hammering it. The first reaction when hearing [local Republican]'s name in the news should be “that’s the guy who doesn’t want to give me tax credit for my kids” or whatever part of the good stuff they latch on to.

5056

Oh, and what will that point be?
“We can break everything if you don’t yield to our demands”?

Let me take the time here to say, fuck this fucking bullshit right in the ass. Seriously, anyone who suggests that accelerationism is remotely feasible, should be thrown in the gutter like the trash they are. Those fucking imbeciles can fuck ALL the way off.

5057

It’s not that Manchin and Sinema have no agency… they have complete agency.

They disagree with you.

You seem to think that the way to deal with that, is to take YOUR OWN BILL HOSTAGE, and threaten to destroy it. That’s total nonsense, man.

5058

You are just so determined to talk past people.