The Biden Presidency is underway.

[Matt_W]

@Enidigm

So… it is fear that governs the Democrats, like I said.

This bill is a positive accomplishment of Democrats

Text - H.R.3684 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Infrastructure Investment and...

I mean did fear get this bill drafted and passed?

[scottagibson]

@Enidigm

The whole “trade” thing wasn’t really what I had in mind. The idea is something like “how many Manchin will I put up with to save X”. If it means no new taxes ever again, to save X and get the Manchins on board, then so be it. What’s worth sacrificing all your principles to save? What I fear is that the fear of the GOP will eventually turn into the idea that there’s nothing worth dying in that hill over, just a never ending series of retreats because of the fear of the GOP having power is greater than any particular policy at all.

I guess I feel that, even in this current situation, this is a false choice. You can both put up with Manchin and pass some of your agenda. And you don’t have the option of not putting up with Manchin and still passing any of your agenda. You can’t get a better version of Manchin and, until and unless you can, you put up with Manchin and get his help to pass some of your agenda. Nobody gets harmed by trying to legislate and not always being successful.

[Enidigm]

Sure but that was a bipartisan bill… like I also said. Not strongly bipartisan but it required GOP support.

Which… like I said, is the future you’re apparently ok with.

[dtolman]

BBB is a combination of Social and Environmental/Anti-Global Warming priorities. If he’s down on the Social Priorities - that leaves a lot of room to throw money at WV to convince him to stop Global Warming. A narrower bill focused on the environmental priorities would still be a huge win.

[scottagibson]

@Enidigm

Sure but that was a bipartisan bill… like I also said. Not strongly bipartisan but it required GOP support.

I think the America Rescue Act — the COVID relief bill — was 50+1 in the Senate. Without Manchin, you get none of it.

[Matt_W]

@Enidigm

Which… like I said, is the future you’re apparently ok with.

I don’t get a choice. “OK with it” doesn’t apply. I’d rather Democrats be able to deliver on all planks of their platform. But that’s not going to happen. I’ll take what I can get.

[Enidigm]

Look I’m really arguing a few steps and a few years ahead here. I understand entirely this is the best that can be done - I’ve actually said this explicitly and repeatedly.

I’m just saying indirectly that you need to start inventorying which lines you’re not going to be able to cross, which fortresses you’re not willing to give up, and then decide what that means when it looks like you do.

[KevinC]

@Thrag

Well the market reaction to Manchin’s move hasn’t exactly been positive. Good thing he was so worried about hurting the economy.

I’m being nitpicky so let me be clear: I feel you, and I’m all aboard the fuck Manchin train.

That said, the market has fuck all to do with the economy. Especially short term trends. It’s one of those things that I’m compelled to say whenever it’s brought up, kinda like my feelings about the New York Times! :)

[Menzo]

@KevinC

That said, the market has fuck all to do with the economy.

Not only that, but the fact that the market apparently assumed that BBB would pass just shows how dumb it is.

[Thrag]

Okay, that made me chuckle.

[scottagibson]

@Enidigm

Look I’m really arguing a few steps and a few years ahead here. I understand entirely this is the best that can be done - I’ve actually said this explicitly and repeatedly.

Sorry. I’m just struggling to understand you.

@Enidigm

I’m just saying indirectly that you need to start inventorying which lines you’re not going to be able to cross, which fortresses you’re not willing to give up, and then decide what that means when it looks like you do.

To what end? Elections for the Senate are state elections, not national ones, and Democrats running for the Senate in a red state are going to be campaigning on a somewhat different agenda than are Democrats running in a blue state. I don’t really see any advantage to telling the ones in the red state that they have to run on X, or telling the ones in the blue state that they can’t run on Y. You want them both to be elected.

[Enidigm]

There’s one thing I’ve learned about writing about politics is that what people understand of me is whatever is the tone and political color of the voice they think they hear when reading me on the screen. Second is their own worldview which sometimes just can’t hear anything beyond their experience. Third is my own failings and idiosyncrasies.

I’m not here to argue, those are just my points of view. If you don’t understand or disagree, sorry and/or fair enough! and I’ll let someone else have the last word.

[Gordon_Cameron]

@KevinC

That said, the market has fuck all to do with the economy.

The way it works is that it just keeps going up forever, right?

/glances nervously at 401k

[Sharpe]

Just for the record, I feel that @Enidigm and @scottagibson have been talking past each other for months in this forum, with Enidigm taking a more abstract and conceptual kind of view and scott taking a very “immediate realities” kind of view, which don’t really overlap. I find that both takes are useful to an overall understanding, even if they are both whooshing past each other all the time.

[138]

@CLWheeljack

@scottagibson

“I’m worried people might do X. I mean, I would !”

The excessive detail of “hunting trips” is hilarious and telling.

Well, it IS a state that basically shuts down for the first week of deer season, so…

[Thrag]

Manchin has a real high opinion of his constituents. Sorry folks, you’re all a bunch of lazy drug addicts, no help for you!

Remember when we had noble notions like “better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisioned”. America now is all “better millions of children live in poverty than a single person misuse benefits!”

[scottagibson]

@Enidigm

There’s one thing I’ve learned about writing about politics is that what people understand of me is whatever is the tone and political color of the voice they think they hear when reading me on the screen. Second is their own worldview which sometimes just can’t hear anything beyond their experience. Third is my own failings and idiosyncrasies.

@Sharpe

Just for the record, I feel that @Enidigm and @scottagibson have been talking past each other for months in this forum, with Enidigm taking a more abstract and conceptual kind of view and scott taking a very “immediate realities” kind of view, which don’t really overlap.

Well, I’m properly chastened and will try to do better.

[Gordon_Cameron]

I try to read everyone’s posts with Gilbert Gottfried’s voice in my head.

[Thrag]

Even Kevin’s? Having grown up on Dukes of Hazzard it’s impossible for me not to read them in boss Hogg’s voice. Makes things interesting sometimes.

[Gordon_Cameron]

But consider this: