6185

I know that this is me being naïve, but man oh man, I really wish that we could remove the Self from politics. I don’t know how to better put that since I’ve only had a sip of coffee this morning. My point is that I hate how politics has evolved into “Well, what do I get out of it?” for some groups. Just looking at the most recent posts has me shaking my head because I don’t think we should need to buy votes by forgiving debt, giving SALT deductions, CTC, etc. etc.

I’d like to get back to where we do things because it’s the right thing to do. I don’t give 2 shits about forgiving student loan debt if that money can be used better elsewhere to benefit a larger share of people (or everyone) just to get the “college vote” – which isn’t guaranteed to be a Dem vote. Same thing with SALT. Something like the CTC or free public college are good ideas because they are the right thing to do, not because they will lure votes from single moms or college kids. And they deserve to be part of the conversation.

If younger people aren’t voting because they don’t think Dems will do anything for them, then they’re doing it wrong, IMO. You choose who will lead better, who has the better ideas, who will help the most people. Obviously, folks on either end of the political spectrum have differing opinions on who fits the bill on that, but that’s OK. The point is, you get out and vote for people to lead this country based on a set of ideals, not on what YOU personally get out of it.

Again, I know this is all ridiculous and naïve and a little bit “Mr. Smith Goes To Washington,” but it’s what struck me this morning while getting caught up on the thread. Carry on.

6186

I agree with much of this, but one big ideal that drives my voting is the idea that government exists to help those who need help, and another is that some form of capitalism is preferred because it creates the wealth required to provide that help. So now we have elected a government majority, and it should get on with helping people using the available wealth. I’m sure there are lots of people who feel the way I do, just as there are people who don’t, and they will be motivated to vote based on how well the elected government meets their expectations.

So when I say that some group might be motivated by action or inaction, I’m mostly talking about that kind of motivation: not did I get helped? so much as did those people deliver on the expectation that they would help? If the answer is pretty consistently ‘no’, then people naturally lose the motivation to participate in the process. So I think the government should act to help people, and if they can’t act through Congress then we are left only with those things the executive can do unilaterally.

As for young people, there are lots of things besides voting that they ought to do but don’t. They ought to start saving for retirement. They ought to buy health insurance. They ought to eat better and exercise more. They ought to read more books and play fewer video games. They don’t do these things, but it isn’t because they haven’t been properly bribed to do it. It’s because young people believe they will live young forever, that they are uniquely invulnerable and wise and right, so they don’t have to do any of these ordinary things. Thus it has always been.

6187

You know that scene in ‘A Christmas Carol’ where Fred goes on to Scrooge about his views on Christmas and then he finishes up and Bob Cratchit starts applauding? That’s how I feel right now. Well said, sir. (and a Merry Christmas!)

6188

And to you, my friend!

6189

How the hell do you save for retireement when student loans are eating a massive chunk of your check?

I didn’t start saving for retirement until 30. My brother-in-law was paying student loans until he was 50.

Kids have it worse now. A lot of the younger generation also was raised in a “politics doesn’t matter” culture, caused by media. The more politically aware youth are radicalized, and generally don’t believe in capitalism period.

6190

This is what you took away from my comment?

I was working poor for years, and still I can look back on it now and see the better choices I could have made even then. Certainly many young people have it worse now than when I was young, but it’s a perpetual truism of youth I’m pointing out.

6191

So, one thing I’m curious about is if “We can’t afford that school” is even a conversation that happens any more. My sister and I both went to Rutgers, as in-state students, because that’s what we could afford. Even though we both took out loans, grants, etc., it was what we could afford. Meaning that my parents sat us down and said that there was no “college fund” and that given our circumstances in life, we would be paying off our loans ourselves. Sure, there were other much more expensive options, but that would lead to a greater amount that we’d need to pay off later. Do parents and kids have this type of conversation anymore, or does the kid just pick a school and everyone rolls with the incoming debt?

6192

I would assume that conversation still happens. With my kids, although they are very young, the current plan is to send them to community college, if they don’t get grants or scholarships, and the school they want to go to accepts transfer credits.
Both my wife and I went to York College of PA, which is small, less expensive liberal arts college and one of the things I learned as a Resident Assistance was that a good chunk of students did two years at HACC before going to YCP and were getting the same diploma I was. So, that’s the plan for my kids, unless something changes in the next 11 years or so.

But keep in mind, College was also seen as the gateway to great jobs and wealth, so an expensive college could be seen as an investment. And if wages had kept pace with costs of living and cost of tuition, that might have been true.

6193

It was a lot easier for us than it is for the kids of today. I think we’ve lost sight of that.

I know what it’s like to be working poor too.

6194
6195

Agreed. It drives me crazy. A really smart friend of my brothers said to him after Trump was elected: Well, I can totally see why he’d be terrible for you, but as a white male, he hasn’t done anything yet to actually hurt me. Similarly, a good friend of ours here in town who visits our office from time to time, Conservative, but a very smart one who is a world traveler and former Marine who we love talking to: “Well, I can see perfectly why you guys wouldn’t want to vote for him, but Trump has been great for white guys like me”. I don’t know, it’s just weird when most of the time discussions revolve around what’s fair, and what’s smart, and what’s good policy, but at other times when it comes to actual voting, it’s bizarre to me that so many times I see people fall back to “what’s in it for me personally”.

6196

I wish those folks got a good dose of something that makes them a minority for a bit. It really does change your perspective on things.

That said, if you look at leftist spaces, you see a lot of folks just directly begging for money, so it does kinda cut both ways.

6197

I think these are pretty bad sentiments; sentiments that go way beyond what’s good for me, personally. They’re basically approving of bigotry and prejudice and of effecting those things in actual policy, from the perspective of the privileged party.

6198

My kids both spent at least 2 years at a junior college, which compared to when I went there is now expensive but nothing like what a 4 year school costs. After JC they both got BAs from state colleges, although the out of town one still set me back $30k.

I don’t see how anyone can justify to themselves the cost of some of the degrees they are earning. How do people getting liberal arts degrees, art degrees etc think they are going to pay off the cost?

6199

What choice do they have? If you want to teach kids, in most places you need a master’s degree, or you need a bachelor’s degree and some kind of certification, which requires additional university education. It can’t be the case that we don’t want people to teach kids, so the problem is clearly a disconnect between what it costs to qualify and what it pays to do the actual work. We can say that they’re stupid to take it on, but we don’t actually want them not to take it on.

6200

20-year repayment program I assume. After 20 years, your loan is forgiven (although you have to pay taxes on it). Just need to make those IBR payments.

Or, work for a nonprofit, or government agency (which I believe schools are part of). 10 years on the Income-Based Repayment program, and the loan is forgiven (this time tax-free).

A friend of mine is a Social Worker, has a Master’s degree, and is grinding out the 10 years for loan forgiveness.
I have another friend that got a law degree. Had a good job but the health insurance was lacking for his wife (who had cancer in the past, so it is a constant worry), switch to a State Job for both the health insurance and to grind out those same 10 years.

And that is what I’m doing. I’m on year 2 of my 10-year commitment to the Federal Government.

So, yeah, the math is not in your favor if you get a liberal arts degree or art degree or history degree, but there were ways to make it work. These last 10 years have made it harder and harder though, which is something I would like to see fixed.

6201

You can do that at a local state school and not some other option. Sometimes the “cheap” route makes more sense. I do understand that even a state school can be expensive but I don’t know how many I have talked to whose kids refused the junior college option and demanded the 4 year out of town one instead.

Are college loans deductible in any way? I know there is a tax break while you go to school, we used that, but is the cost of the loan in any way a right off. It should be, just like a mortgage payment only make it upfront and not on a schedule A.

I saw on the news where the local junior college district, which is huge here (4 campuses in 3 counties), was holding a job fair. They wanted BA’s for some subjects and Masters for others. I have no idea what K-12 requires but they are begging as well.

6202

4 years at a local state school I know — Arizona State University — costs $44,000. That’s in state. There isn’t any way to become a teacher that doesn’t cost multiple tens of thousands of dollars.

6203

I think 4 years at a California State school will run you probably $32k. But again, use the first two at a JC. Especially if your degree isn’t some specialized thing requiring special classes. I get that part. But a teacher doesn’t need that kind of specialized 4 year classes.

A JC now though will still probably set you back $4,000 over 2 years, although California will pay that for many low income students. I remember paying a flat $50 a semester, back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. Plus books of course. Books cost more than tuition.

6204

I mean I went to one back about 15 years ago. Even then it was a few hundred bucks per class, not including books which could still be $2-300 each.

Community college is cheaper, no doubt, but a full time student in many areas could still easily clear $4k in a single year.

Including books? Room and board?

There is some legitimate problems there. Now I am going to speak from my own experience as someone at the older end of the millennial generation.

When I was graduating high school there was a lot of factors at play. In an objective sense a local community college makes a lot of financial sense. But there are issues. Some of it branding, some of it marketing, some of it real. Part of it is we are asking 18 year olds to make 6 figure decisions without a lot of understanding on their part, especially first gen college kids (hi, its me again!).

But community college was looked down on. And in many ways, especially in engineering, many public universities are considered ‘second tier’. Three is an implicit understanding that better schools = better opportunity. The quality of the education at many universities may be equal, but there is some cultural understanding that having a degree from an Ivy has some greater opportunity on the back end than a similar degree from Eastern Illinois. Not that you would get a bad education per se, though sometimes this may be true, but that an equivalent degree from Yale or Eastern would favor the Yale grad on the job hunt. To what degree this is true or offset by the cost is not something well known or published, and so high school students are operating with limited or bad data there.

Secondly, and tied in, is the understanding that better universities that give greater opportunity and education may not be possible to attend if you defer the first two years at a community college. Again, how accurate this is is hard to ascertain, but it is a real consideration. So you go to community college you may foreclose on your choice of university and be unable to get into the programs you want, and have to settle for a second tier. You are taking a lower financial cost of known amount for an unknown opportunity cost. Given the stakes, for those whom it is an option, it becomes hard to go with the financial aspect of going to a community college when you are weighing that unknown opportunity cost. So if MIT accepts you, you go to MIT.

Third there is a stigma, especially for high performing students. I graduated at the top of my class in high school. CoD was considered the college for kids who wouldn’t be able to hack it in a ‘real’ university. For me to go there would have felt like a failure out of high school. I was the straight A student who graduated honors, and got accepted to multiple prestigious engineering schools. Waiting 2 years and not knowing if I would be able to attend in 2 years time while going to the local community college full of the marginal students getting their associates before working retail for the next decade? People whom were not my peers in high school? That is a tough thing to do, no matter how much financial sense it may make. Especially given all the other factors, and the lack of family experience.

I am all for making it a more appealing option, for helping kids make the best decision. None of what I wrote is meant as a judgement against community college at all. Merely presenting a portion of the factors I personally experienced when making that decision 20 years ago. Add in the various pressures from school councilors pushing me towards the more expensive universities? Community college was an option that did not feel like a valid option for me, and students like me. It existed as the default choice for the screw ups and lesser students. Not top end national merit scholars like me.

The entire system is designed to create those incentives and pressures to lead kids into the more expensive options. Individual 18 year olds, especially those without the financial savvy of college grads, are hard pressed to navigate this.

You are able to deduct some college expenses from taxes. It doesn’t help much for many though, as it isn’t a credit, merely a deduction. The net effect was I paid no effective federal tax many years while in school. But I didn’t receive any tax credits like with EITC or CTC.