I see the NFT as the same as the certificate of authenticity, a distinctly different item from the original or duplicate art itself.
Well indeed. Yet people don’t pay millions for certificates of authenticity without the art itself.
That is an accurate observation of how paper certificates differ, but is a weird point to get hung up on IMO.
One thing I learned yesterday is that NFTs can be made so that each resale provides some portion back to the original artist(s). That’s a pretty nice improvement over traditional paper certificates.
I don’t plan on buying any NFTs, but I don’t see what all the fuss is about on the negative. I think some people are deadset on hating anything “crypto” and are just as insufferable as the Bitcoin bros.
Timex
1711
But the thing is, the certificate of authenticity for an actual physical thing is letting you know that it’s real… That is not a fabrication.
With digital items, there is no difference between the original and a copy. It’s not like a fake Picasso that was painted by someone else. It’s exactly the same as any other digital copy.
As a matter of principle, I don’t think NFTs are particularly more silly than the art market in general, beyond the general environmental issues with crypto. And as you say, they can be made in ways that offer real benefits. But in practice, the vast majority of them are terribly designed and give the owners little more than access to a URL with no guarantee that URL will even continue to host the underlying artwork.
True, but also something that can be achieved with ordinary art via contract (and indeed must be achieved via contract even for NFTs).
Not quite true; this can be enforced by the Ethereum blockchain rather than by any outside legal agreement.
The Ethereum blockchain can’t prevent people selling their keys/wallets off the blockchain.
Did you see earlier in the thread how awful they are for the environment?
I paid for a numbered lithograph of a picture, I think 1 of 100. It’s exactly the same as the other 99 lithographs, and the artist could freely run off another hundred or thousand of the same picture, but probably won’t.
Now granted, it’s a little different than buying a picture that someone else is keeping in their own house with the promise that I can definitely absolutely always go over there and see it sometime (unless the door is locked or the house burns down or something). But there are also physical certificates of things not in my house, the certificate that says I own a star, or my adoption papers for a wolf that I sponsor at a wolf preserve, or a picture that I own but is on loan to a gallery.
Also, I think maybe these things aren’t worth the $18 million that people are paying for them, but I also wouldn’t pay $120,000 for a banana duct-taped to a wall, and that’s a real physical thing that someone bought.
I think that “This is dumb because you’re paying for something digital” and “This is dumb because it’s bad for the environment” are two separate arguments.
As long as you agree that ownership is overrated, and eternal rentseeking is good, it’s amazing.
The URL being accessible is irrelevant, it could be any other URI scheme. If there is a market, experts will easily agree or disagree that it’s a uniquely valid representation of ownership of one specific thing. If you need another ledger to see where it digitally is, who cares.
I don’t particularly see it as a thing worthy of social status and thus valuable, but it’s not like it would be the first on the list. Or anywhere near the first.
Timex
1718
It’s actually not the same. It’s numbered. It is a single, unique, physical object. It’s certainly very similar to the others, but it is none the less unique.
That is not the same with digital media.
Forgery is a concern in the high end art market. At the low end no one cares, which is probably what the majority of the NFT market will consist of too.
I think that mostly applies to Bitcoin, not Ethereum that NFTs use, but I’m not certain of that. I tend to find pleas about electricity waste on frivolous activity pretty funny on a forum about electronic gaming.
I think ownership is fine. So is leasing. So is ownership of a certificate whose resale includes a percentage to the original creator. It’s a innovation that people can pick from the menu - no one is forced to use it.
If someone shows me that each post I place on this forum uses as much energy as my whole household does for over a month, I’d stop coming here immediately.
Tim_N
1721
It’s also surprising how many luddites there are in a gaming forum. If they were born 20 years sooner they’d probably be going on and on about how online bank accounts aren’t real money, only notes and coins that you can hold have substance. If they were born 40 years sooner it’d be all about the the huge consequences to ending the gold standard.
Timex
1722
A digital copy isn’t a forgery though. It’s the exact same thing.
Adding an identification number doesn’t change the artwork itself. The artwork is still identical to the other 99 prints, even if there’s a penciled “1/100” on the back or on a separate certificate of authenticity or on an email receipt.
If 100 lithographs are unique because they have a numbering system, then digital copies of the same file are also unique, because they have their own creation dates and modification dates and file indexes on a hard drive. If the you take out the indexing system, then digital copies and physical copies are all identical to each other. If you include the indexing system, then digital copies and physical copies are unique.
Timex
1724
No, it’s literally not. It is a unique physical object that exists as finite, quantitatively measurable matter within the physical universe.
The atoms of that print are unique. It exists as a separate physical object from other copies.
None of this applies to digital media. Digital media is a purely abstract thing, with no physical form at all. Every copy is literally exactly the same, because it is essentially nothing more than a sequence of numbers.
It’s not luddism, in either it’s original meaning or the modern, to point out it in no way functions like a currency, that is the intended design. And saying it’s luddism to doubt it can work like one if things that it hasn’t accomplished in more than 10 years (namely, stability and decentralization) is a stretch. The examples you give don’t work because currencies had already been “online” or fiat before in cases.
Or for any other role that can’t functionally be replaced by any other DB or another financial asset, as appropriate.
Right, what you own is a private cryptography key that goes through a bunch of layers to prove you have one of a set. Copying the token would be like two people having access to any other (digital or analog) certificate, any operation by either would apply to the thing, which wouldn’t matter for viewing but for transferring - which, as far as I get these things, is all that actually matters. And it only matters if and as long as anyone cares, so, nothing new in the art world.
Tim_N
1726
There are already a great deal of stablecoins that have kept their value steady over long periods of time. It’s hard to criticise a currency for having an unstable value when it is literally transitioning from some nerds in a basement having fun to a mainstream financial asset. I’m not sure what you mean that it hasn’t accomplished decentralization.
There are coins that exist right now, which conduct a large number of transactions per second, where fees are almost zero, transactions are near-instant globally, and it uses less energy per transaction than Visa. To condemn a whole type of technology because of bitcoin is very uninformed, and to go on and on about how the whole thing is completely stupid for years is, to me, a form of luddism (modern sense of the word) which is very similar to what you see from older generations on any sort of new tech (not claiming everyone here is old or anything).
EDIT: Please note @Perky_Goth I am not accusing you specifically of being a luddite or going on and on about crypto for years. Just venting about some others.
Which cryptocoin does all of those things you mentioned? Or if there are multiple of them, which is the highest profile? I’m interested.
