ShivaX
4476
Very much agreed. I’d like to see the Biden people or NAACP do it (NAACP are likely among those getting heads cracked, but they have some office people, I’m sure).
Again, agree 100%. Which is why I want someone to get it out there so it can get to the people on the ground.
Agree to disagree on that one. I think it gave the racists a foot in the door. <3
Nesrie
4477
So did all of these.
It’s never going to be right… for someone. It’s an easy out for anyone who just doesn’t want a change.
You of all people should appreciate hyperbole when you see it.
ShivaX
4480
Again, agree 1000%. Most of my day is honestly arguing with people I know about those exact examples.
If I don’t see another MLK picture with how he didn’t riot or whatever other horseshit, I can die quasi-happy.
But sadly most people don’t pay enough attention. Fuck the All Lives Matter people. I’ve had fights with them about it, but I’ve also had a fight with someone who didn’t seem to understand it was a racist thing. She just was like “but I care about all people” and no amount of pointing out what she was falling for helped. Then she basically went ballistic (I was calling her racist!) and I had to cut off all communication.
Was she actually racist? I’ll likely never know, but it didn’t feel like it. At least not consciously (not to say unconscious racism isn’t dangerous and terrible, because it is).
It think she just fell for the marketing without thinking about it.
Sadly, marketing matters in American politics. “I like Ike” works better than a rundown of his policies.
Timex
4481
But it wasn’t hyperbole, because the mayor was totally in support of them, and doing major police reforms.
They ran him out because he wasn’t willing to commit to totally disbanding the police. Because he was willing to do all the non crazy stuff.
Nesrie
4482
This is part of our educational problem, the way we squeeze Black history into a singled month and we teach about one approach, barely touch on Malcom X or Mandela and the apartheid, barely mention the Black Panthers, often leave movies about famous musicians experiencing their hardships… through the eyes of a white man. I am not expecting BLM to fix any of that, but when you teach the general population that the only “good” black man was the peaceful one that let he and his followers get beat, and then create a system where peaceful protests are often just drowned out… it’s not going to lead to change.
The answer to this is… basically yes. If a black man dies and the next thing out of someone’s mouth is what about me… that’s part of the systematic racism. Too many people think racism is a burning cross, a white hood or a slur they can’t repeat. This is part of the systematic problem that was defined better by @Strollen shared peace of the gentleman who adopted a little black girl (note: I don’t agree with all of it but it is an interesting and worthwhile take on it). It’s baked in, and whether or not someone runs around flaming racism, they’re more than willing to support the existing system and try and explain why they are not part of the problem.
So no, it’s not just marketing. It’s a system designed to guide white people into circling around the problem so they don’t have to deal with it or see or engage with it.
Now ideally someone like Biden and our existing Civil Rights leaders, including lawyers, and if Bernie can get his shit together and actually focus on minorities and stop doing his everyone has problems spiel, they could actually formulate a real solution to roll out nation wide.
For specific units though, districts I think they call them, a complete tear-down may required. It’s not reform, it’s not new diversity bullshit training, it a complete destruction of a toxic culture to be rebuilt again by outside forces. I don’t know what we should call that, but someone high on adrenaline, spending day after day facing violence, disfigurement or actual death from the actual police would not be the best person to ask how they want to handle the police at that moment… no many how many mics get shoved in front of them.
The problem is does the younger generation consider that leadership credible, especially given the generational splits in the 2016/2020 primaries and other generational splits?
I don’t know how we build a new police culture. That’s the hard part. This is not an easy, quick fix, It will take years.
Without a true culture fix, even getting rid of bad apples means you just get new bad apples.
ShivaX
4484
To be fair to her, that was before all this popped off.
But I’ll agree it’s likely subconscious racism.
Hell, I spend a lot of time battling that fight with my mother. She doesn’t think she’s racist, but then immediately busts out MLK and “I support the police” after telling me she hasn’t really been paying attention to things.
“I didn’t pay attention, but I have a strong opinion about it,” is one of the most frustrating things to deal with.
Agreed.
Yes.
Again, agreed. I don’t think that the MPD can be saved, nor should it be.
The same goes for the Seattle PD, LAPD and NYPD imo. Portland is a dumpster fire as well.
Then again, I’m also out there saying ACAB, so I realize I’m not the target audience for any sort of messaging. But I know people like my mother. Like friends I’ve gamed with over the years from across the nation. And marketing matters to them. Because if you do a run down of issues, they’ll agree on all of them. But they’ll still have a knee-jerk reaction to messaging. I get their mindset.
Frustrating shit, but human nature, I guess.
Tman
4485
We need about 1/10 of what we have today in Police if that much.
Think about what police do and how we could / should replace each function:
Traffic / Speeding tickets: Just need a traffic person with a radar/camera. We already mail red light offenses, same here. Someone speeding? Just take a picture and send them a bill.
Homeless: Replace all police / homeless interactions with social workers.
Property theft - Police really aren’t needed here. I think you could replace most property theft with teenage kids on social media and get far better than 20% recovery rate that they get today. Joking on the teenage kids, but point is this rarely needs armed police presence.
Sheriff evictions: County clerks / social workers could do this.
Domestic Disturbances: Social workers / Psych majors.
Now you do still need police - actual armed robberies, evictions that don’t go smoothly, or drunken drivers, but these are all a minority. This could be a small set of teams that communities can call on when needed.
I actually tried a few searches “how police spend their time” and the 2nd link was a paper from 1970. I think the police unions are doing a great job in hiding what the police do spend their time on. I would welcome a better link if someone can find it.
So we need to stop armed thugs. How often does that occur? “Crime” is such a broad statement. How much of crime needs someone armed to respond?
Nesrie
4486
Guiding might be a role for some. Our younger leaders… they simply don’t know the systems or the laws they are dealing with… yet. Someone has to tell them, and the Civil Rights leaders especially have entrenched support and experience… they marched before. So no the intention isn’t to cut anyone out just have a foundation, stronger than Occupy ever had.
Yeah it is. But like Mr. Fred up there said, a lot attempts were tried before, including listening to suggestions, softening tons, using people who have financial protections… still didn’t work. Someone always three beared it and therefore got an excuse to just do nothing which is what they wanted all along anyway.
Besides, I see no reason to dismantle or defund, whatever legal maneuver it takes to get around the unions until we figure out how to permanently take care of that, functional police systems I also believe that’s where some of the defund comes from because due to unions… firing, cleaning house is severely hindered. Defunding might be a work around. I am under the impression we have several that are okay. Any laws, regs we have at the national level would affect them but there’s no reason to take those done if they actually work.
The kid breathing heavy after running away from shields or batons might not actually know which systems those are though or why they work. Heck they might not even know they exist… for some people, they might’ve only encountered one or two… ever. That’s their world view, being harassed by police since they were twelve.
So that was that and all is said and done? These aren’t political negotiators, they’re protestors making a strong fucking point.
Wow. That’s a powerful speech. I hope he reaches people with it, I honestly do.
ShivaX
4489
They’re shaking the Sacred Fence in Portland, expect violence soon.
An account from a reporter on the Buffalo PD.
“Fuck your 1st amendment rights.”
And a very long (and depressing) Dave Roberts thread
I agree. I wish I could think of a racist person I could attempt to convert. I saw an All Lives Matter comment on a high school classmate’s facebook page five days ago. Ever since then, in my idle moments, I’ve been writing and rewriting a response in my head, trying to imagine what I might say if I decided to engage in a discussion with them. Actually, the only time I’ve ever engaged with facebook friends and distant family about anything remotely political was on this subject back when Kaepernick and BLM was being mistreated. I know there are racists in my community (they helpfully mark their houses with Trump signs) but I think I’ve done a pretty good job not having any in my life.
Not so sure about that. It’s just as vague, but doesn’t necessarily suggest major change. You could do damn near anything and proclaim you had “fixed the police”. Maybe something like “remake” would be better. I don’t know.
I think you start with public awareness, which the are doing, and deciding as a country, as much as that’s possible, that we simply won’t stand for it anymore. And if you think that sounds like a fantasy, I’d point to #metoo.
Just look at how the everyday conversation about harassment has changed in the last few years. We can do that with racism too. Get it out in the open. Make people uncomfortable. Then publicly ostracize people that don’t step in line instead of protecting them.
ShivaX
4493
Gas and flashbangs in Portland at The Fence.
Edit: Make that, basically all of downtown. So much for no tear gas, I guess.
ShivaX
4494
Gas in Seattle.
Edit: Seattle off the rails. 30 day ban on tear gas turns out to be… not so much.
They’ve fired about 200 of the things.
Also apparently flashbangs are free because they’re throwing them around like their candy at a parade.
I think it’s impossible to convert folks unless something hits them over the head and they want to be converted, or you can subvert them through something else.
One friend I have who is very antifa, she’s been using games to deradicalize/convert right-wing radicals, even if she’s scarily radical in the other direction herself.
Generally radicals who swap sides become radicals in the other direction.
