Tearing down a statue of an abolitionist is dumb and makes you look dumb when you do it. It’s an own goal for sure. I don’t see any problem with calling out specific stupid people doing stupid shit. It would only be wrong to ascribe their stupidity to the entire movement.

The stimulus checks here also caused a reduction in poverty in the US during the biggest economic decline in AMerican history.

I now wish I had voted for Yang in the primary.

And a lot of the white freakout is because they see a dollar given to someone else as a dollar taken from them. That’s what a lot of it boils down to, and that’s what years of propaganda has taught them. I don’t know how you break this, but I’m willing to support any means necessary at this point.

Yeah. Going after Grant was similarly stupid.

“He owned a slave.”

Dude was literally given one as an inheritance and the first thing he did was free him as soon as he possibly could. “Well, he still owned one.” At which point you want to shake a motherfucker until he dies from it.

That said, I’m fine with no statues. Because it’s fucking weird anyway.

I don’t want to live in a world without this statue:

Okay, it’s merely a bust.

Find me an anti-racist in that Norwegian town who cared about the statue, and had heard of him (and isnt a local historian) before now, and puts a statue of a near forgotten man above dismantling the structures of racism in the US. Hint: Im not including Norwegian Karen in the anti-racist category.

The statue is being removed because of roadworks - fine
The statue is corroded and being removed due to safety reasons - yeah sure
The statue is being replaced by a different one because its ugly - whatever, who is it again?
The statue was destroyed because of a wider US anti-racist movement to remove civil war era statues. - My rage holds no bounds at this very assault on my identity and soul. That man I had to google matters more to me than my blood and kin. We might be 6000 miles away and didnt even know there was a statue there but we’re still not even prepared to give up even one statue of our dead guys for your cause. Not one. Norwegian bronze matters more than black American flesh.

Surely you mean this, not whatever that is

I’m ok with a few “borderline” statues if we can keep this one. But then my opinion wasn’t asked for :)

I mostly agree, but that’s not how any person wanting to tie a simple loop in some line would do it. The average layman would simply make an overhand knot, a sailor a bowline. No one would take the time to do the 12 wraps with a line running through it, that’s a noose.

Eventually there won’t be any statues left, at least of real people, since I don’t think there’s a single person who lived in a way that is entirely free of issue.

If that’s good or bad, I dunno.

Grant is super fascinating. I don’t know if anyone watched the three part history channel special on him but, if not, it’s well worth watching. His views on race definitely evolved over time and he was one of the strongest civics rights presidents we’ve ever had.

— His parents were abolitionists but he fell in love with the daughter of a plantation owner. His parents refused to come to the wedding.

— After he left the Army for the first time he struggled financially. His father in law gave him a slave and he was criticized by his neighbors for working in the field alongside his slave who he freed at the height of his economic troubles.

— During the war he had a high opinion of black soldiers fighting for the North. He also had a Native American General on his staff.

— After Lincoln was assassinated Grant was furious at Johnson for refusing to send troops to protect black Americans who were being killed in the South. As with the Tulsa Massacre, a lot of these incidents were called “riots” and he was having none of that, saying that American Citizens were being massacred and that the federal government had a responsibility to act.

— He didn’t really want to be President but knew that no one else was going to carry on Lincoln’s vision if he didn’t step up.

— Once in office he declared martial law and sent federal troops in to protect black Americans and to enforce reconstruction.

— He signed the naturalization act granting freed slaves citizenship, helped pass the 15th amendment and was in favor of women’s suffrage. His feeling was that we as a nation had not lived up to the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and that all citizens should have true equality.

— He firmed the DOJ and sent spies and more troops to break up the klan. He didn’t give a fuck of Ilan leaders ere prominent lawyers, mayors, etc. Prosecute them all he said.

— He appointed black Americans to federal positions.

— Frederick Douglass said Grant, even more than Lincoln, was the single strongest advocate for civil rights. “To Grant more than any other man the negro owes his enfranchisement and the Indian a humane policy. In the matter of protection of the freedman from violence his moral courage surpassed that of his party, hence his place at its head was given to timid men, and the country was allowed to drift, instead of stemming the current with stalwart arms.”

Douglass’s last point there highlights the true tragedy of the postwar period and pretty much leads in a straight line to the systemic racism that exists to this day. Gent remained a staunch advocate of civil rights his entire life but by his second term white Americans in both the North and the South were turning on him. Facing a backlash that would inevitably lead to openly racist politicians sweeping into office he had to ease off the gas. Grant, even more than Lincoln, had a vision for America with true equality for all Americans but white America wasn’t having it. After Grant institutionalized racism became the norm.

Adding insult to injury, Grant’s reputation was tarnished by the lost cause movement. Grant literally saved the Union and had a vision that rivaled the founding fathers for our country and he’s been written off by history as a corrupt drunk butcher.

Sorry for the sidebar about another dead white guy but Grant deserves credit for his record on civil rights and our current problems can be traced back to those critical years after emancipation when we as a national stood at a crossroads and chose the wrong fucking path.

From the article (with the help of Google Translate):

She describes Heg as one of Lier’s most significant people throughout history.

I doubt anybody here knows about life in that little town, but it’s possible that this guy is a local hero to an otherwise unremarkable locale. Heg is listed as one of the notable figures from that municipality that currently has a population of 21,000 people.

As far as we know, some Norwegian tabloid asked a historian and the mayor for comment, and they responded with the facts of the case and the mayor asked that the statue be repaired.

This argument seems silly.

  1. Every issue is at the same level of why statues are being torn down now? Since when was an adulterer the same as slavery and genocide?

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Norwegian feelings > black lives.

Not one inch of compromise, not one act of sacrifice, not a drop of blood nor a scrap of bronze. All Norwegian Karen had to do was shut up, but no, WHAT ABOUT US shouts the white woman.

I’m bowing out.

Sure, that’s understood – someone went out of their way to make the pull-loop look like a noose.

My thesis is that if in 2018 some bored pit-crew guy made the thing up to look like a noose, it would not be a great assumption to say it was done as a hate-crime. Because for a the majority of the country just a couple years ago, a noose wouldn’t be primarily associated with racism. Unlike in 2020, where I think it would be.

To put it another way, ten years ago I had a Halloween display in my yard where a couple small skeleton dolls were hanging from nooses in a tree. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I never thought about the country’s history of lynching when I put up that display and it was put up with absolutely zero animus towards anyone. It was just supposed to be spooky.

I would never put up such decorations today becasue I – and I think a lot of the rest of the country --see the noose as being much more associated with that history.

I can’t speak for Norway, but as a former Madisonian I can say my reaction to the Heg and Forward statues being toppled is not, “OMG my identity and soul is being threatened!” but rather, “Uh, wtf dudes? I don’t understand what message, if any, this is intended to convey.”

(Looks up the statues … oh hey, the good news about Forward is that she’s a replica, and the original is safe and sound. Also, she was sculpted at the 1993 Chicago World’s Fair by, as the fair brochure put it, “Miss Jean Miner of Madison, Wis. and represents a female figure standing upon the prow of a boat, the figure-head of which is ‘Old Abe.’” Regarding Heg, a statue which I must confess to having no memory of whatsoever, this article says the statue was originally intended for a cemetery in Racine, but then got upgraded to being installed at the Capitol.)

This. I don’t know why this is so hard. All the pearl-clutching over Noregian lives mattering more than black lives is some hot bull. Drawing equivalence to burning down local stores or whatever is not the issue. We all get why outraged BLM folks are tearing shit up. In this specific case though it’s highly counterproductive to the movement.

Oh my God, SO much money.

And it’s so easy. You can be a complete imbecile, and they don’t care.

Also filed under

“This has got to stop before someone gets killed,” he wrote. “Sad thing I’m on their side for peaceful demonstrations — am a Gay Progressive Dem Senator served 36 years in the legislature.”

Protesters claimed he provoked them.

Funny, that’s what the cops always say before they knock down old men trying to return their hats too.

Plus “fighting words” doesn’t really exist anyway.

Must have messed up the reply-to button while replying. Sorry.