By definition if something is classified it’s considered that the information in the wrong hands could cause the nation harm. The degree of harm determines the classification.
The markings revealed on some of the Trump documents are as high a level of classification as you can get.
I’m not sure this is true at all. There is national defense information which is not classified, but which is protected by criminal statute, and I’m sure there is classified information that has little to do with national defense, and therefore not protected by that statute.
The point I was trying to make is that the important question, from a legal perspective, isn’t were those classified documents, but rather what was in those documents.
That appears to be the crux of the problem. At Intel microprocessor plans were treated as “top secret”, they were distributed with red covers. You had your name associated with a specific number, and there was person who’s job it was to keep track of them. So when the plans changed, you left the project, or the projected ended/chip was in production. The person tracked you down and collected the red cover document. IRRC, a VP needed to sign off and you removing the documents from the building. So VP could sign off on their documents and take them home or on trip. I remember a lawsuit hinged on a former employee, taking a document with him, and going to competitor, Intel got a search warrant cause we had a record of the document and him not returning it.
I always assumed that government documents were handled with at least that much care, and the TS, compartmentalized documents had serious looking guys with guns enforcing the rules.
Disagree here. The “If I ran my business…” thing is a bad comparison because the government is not a business and the laws that apply to businesses are not the same laws that apply to the government.
But in this case the laws regarding classified documents that apply to senior government officials are in fact the exact same laws that apply to middle managers at a defense contractor. The DOJ is holding one to a different standard, but they shouldn’t.
The only difference that I can see is that the middle manager doesn’t have a team of aides that should make double-sure that the classified documents are returned to a safe each evening, while senior government officials do.
And that’s what really amazes me about this stuff. I could shrug it off if Joe was running off to catch an Air Force One flight to wherever and he left something on his desk and when he got back a week later he just shuffled it into a pile of other papers and lost track of a document. But that’s not what happens - Joe runs off to his appointment and a bunch of staffers scurry into the room, catalog his notes, sort through his papers, and organize his paperclips by weight.
And yet somehow they manage to misplace dozens of marked documents that end up in boxes next to his Corvette.
I value your opinion, but suffice to say I couldn’t disagree more with everything you’ve typed. (Suffice to say if the only difference you see between a middle manager at a defense company and classified documents that this person comes into contact with and POTUS and the needs of his position and classified documents he contacts, I don’t think we’re going to find much middle ground here, sadly.)
I don’t get this. Neither Tin nor I are saying the President/VP etc shouldn’t have easy access to classified material at all times. It is not Trump or Biden’s responsibility to keep track of classified documents. It is their staff. It seems pretty clear that executive branch isn’t treating classified documents very seriously.
When you hear Congress critters talk about how they see classified documents. They describe the process as “we go to a SCIF, serious looking dudes with guns, confiscated our cellphones, watches etc., they search us when we leave, it pretty intimidating.”
My wild-ass guess is it is a budget/money issue. Presumably, the money for maintaining the congressional SCIF is paid by by an intelligence agency or the DOD. Whereas the White House, probably pays for its own security personnel, and procedures.
It will be interesting to see the special counsels find out.
As a kid, I was kinda pissed; I mean that would have elevated my meager social status to god-tier. As an adult, of course, SO glad I didn’t go that route.
Not every classified document is SCIF material, is it?
I mean, by definition, TS materials have the potential for grave harm to national interests if released.
I’m not going to assume that they were overclassified… I’m not going to give anyone a pass on the basis of “well maybe that stuff was just overclassified.”
Maybe it was… that doesn’t mean you get to make up your own rules.
Hell, with Pence, he was on TV a few weeks ago talking about how there’s no legitimate reason to take classified materials into your personal home… and he’s freaking right. AND THEN HE DID IT HIMSELF.
Obviously it takes a Biblical turn, but still.
The thumbnail had me confused, as I don’t know why Mr SealyP would have opinions on this.
No. But my understanding is that all Congress members, only see any classified material in a SCIF.
Could be, but that sounds like an unworkable arrangement in the executive branch. Like, the VP’s travel schedule, a classified document, can only be viewed in a SCIF? Nobody can carry a copy of one on the trip? That is not going to work.
Lots of stuff is classified. Some of it isn’t very important after the fact. Given that we don’t know what these documents are, and given that we don’t know how they got where they were found, and given that there isn’t any reason to believe they were taken intentionally, I’m not sure how much outrage or opprobrium is called for here.
I mean that in the case of both Biden and Pence, where it’s clear nobody meant to steal and retain and hide the documents. The Trump affair is a different animal, and I think people who genuinely care about national security should refrain from adding fuel to the distraction fire the right is trying to gin up here.
The outrage is because some of us have had it drilled into us how important it is to secure such documents, and the idea of people flaunting the rules because they are rich and powerful is bullshit.
TS documents are not going to be minor things you can ignore the rules about. There’s zero reason for such documents to be in someone’s private home.
I don’t think anyone thinks that these folks took these documents intentionally. I think they were just sloppy in ways that would cause normal people to suffer very bad consequences. Not likely prison, but likely loss of clearance and our jobs.
When you handle such documents, you are responsible for not doing what these guys did.
You don’t even know who packed the boxes the documents were found in, never mind what the documents are. It seems weird to be angry at the rich and powerful when probably it was some flunky who helped clear out the VP’s office and official residence who put that shit in a box.
I’ve had a security clearance before. I’m not outraged, at least not yet. What’s wrong with waiting to see?
There isn’t any reasonable way where classified documents should just be lying around and able to be packed up. The fact that someone could have done such a thing means they were mishandled.
And none of us would have gotten a pass in such a situation.
Classified materials should not be just lying around in the VP’S office or personal residence.
I’m trying to imagine the reaction if they had found a box of TS:SCI documents in my home when I was in the Army, and my response was “Oh dang, my bad! Whoopsie!”
It seems like the sitting President and Vice President handle enough classified documents in the routine performance of their duties that there should be a small 3 or 4 person team assigned to manage this. It could be a joint team of people appointed by the National Archives and Department of Defense who already have clearance to handle all but the most sensitive documents, that way you’re not just picking random campaign staffers (or in Trump’s case major donors) to suddenly be in charge of classified material. This small team would handle classified material with a library-like system, tracking where it came from, to whom it was supposed to be reviewed by, and, if that was more than one person within the administration, who was currently in possession of each document. Then the documents could be recollected and either returned to the Archives or DoD or destroyed in accordance with the proper guidelines. You could see at a glance who had “File NA-XT-00923” and if it had a return-by date assigned. At the end of an administration, all outstanding documents would be located and their return requested/enforced. No more surprises, and all for the low low cost of just 4 more government employees.
Also, I agree with Scott and others, the content of all of these documents makes a huge difference in the level of outrage we should be feeling about their treatment. Biden or Pence having copies of their itineraries from past official foreign or domestic travel (which are considered classified documents, but are mostly useless once said travel has ended) lying around their homes or offices is A LOT different than Trump having DoD documents on a credenza at Mar-A-Lago. In addition, upon discovery of said documents, turning them in immediately (Biden, Pence) seems a lot less shady than denying their existence, then attempting to declassify them with the power of your mind, then claiming you have every right to have them in your possession, until finally the FBI has to show up to take them from you.
But the media has done a very good job of both-sides-ism on all of this, so now somehow Biden’s handful of pages found forgotten in a box in the garage are far more sinister than anything Trump was purposefully hiding for whatever purpose he planned.
I’m pretty sure there is. It’s just like they are pulling documents out of secure storage themselves.
I am able to recognize that Trump’s crimes are worse, while still not giving pence and Biden a pass.
I am, too, which is why I’m not entirely sure it wasn’t them who left them lying around / packed them in a box.
Are these docs SCIF docs? I have not read that before now.